One other thing

[dawson]

Our drafting is definitely an issue and poor decision making since 1996 has cost us dearly. No need to go into the individual cases as that has been done to death on RWO already.

I can already see this messageboard melting down as the discussion drifts toward the offseason and what we do with our list.

Unlike Brisbane, we have never had a real bad season and so never got really good picks. We've had average ones and so at best could only make slight modifications and tinkering to our list.

But for Schneider, we haven't had a young kid in some time who has made an impact and basically moved into the first XVIII.

Rocket Eade kept the kids in cotton wool for three years and for the most part, the same looks like happening.

Why would players like Sundqvist, Buchanan and Ablett stay on our list. They want to play AFL footy and that isn't happening.
They look around and see guys from the same draft such as Daniel Harris, Shaun Burgoyne, Jason Cloke, Ryan Lonie, Andrew Krakouer and John @@@@ running around and making an impact.

I wouldn't mind if some 'Big' Swans names were traded for us to get a top 5 pick. But having done that, I would be livid if the kid didn't play for like 18 months which currently seems to be the case.

We need to be drafting with an eye to be playing the kids we draft.

[sharp9]

There is no chance of trading for a top 5 pick. None. it just doesn't happen any more. Croad went to Freo and that was abig mistake. The only players you can trade for a first round pick are...wait for it....players worth a first round pick!!!!!

So trade Schneider or Roberts-Thompson would you? That would be a bit pointless.

What fans don't seem to realise when assessing players to be traded is that a player is (nearly) always much more valuable to the club he is playing for.

Richardson is a champ at Richmond - definitely in the top 5 of every Richmond supporter. To them he is a really valuable player and they reckon he's worth a number 1 pick.

Obviously they are deluded. We wouldn't give them #25 (even though we could use a KPP to play at half back/ruck).

We wouldn't get #25 for O'Loughlin - and what would be the point, anyway. If a player is worth a decent draft pick then ipso facto he is worth having in our team.

The only exceptions to this rule is when you have four really talented players vying for the same position. But even then the club picking him up is guessing (seeing as the reason he is being traded is that he is "talented" but not getting as game).

This is what happened with French, Knobel and C. Bolton. None of them high profile...all of them a risk for their new club (if they had traded a pick, which we didn't have to)

You should read what Hawthorn reckon they can get for their players (Judd for Hay, for example...I kid you not)

None of our tradeable players (ie not in our top ten) would earn us diddley in the draft.

The only realistic options would be to trade player for player (one of our 0-5 game midfielders for a 0-5 game KPP) eg Sundquist for Staker...but that would presume that the other club has a surfeit of KPP. I don't think any club has that.

[liz]

Re: One other thing

Originally posted by dawson

Rocket Eade kept the kids in cotton wool for three years and for the most part, the same looks like happening.

Why would players like Sundqvist, Buchanan and Ablett stay on our list. They want to play AFL footy and that isn't happening.
They look around and see guys from the same draft such as Daniel Harris, Shaun Burgoyne, Jason Cloke, Ryan Lonie, Andrew Krakouer and John @@@@ running around and making an impact.

Don't really agree with this. Fact is that most 17 or 18 year olds aren't going to have much of an impact. There will always be a few who spring out of the box and star straight away, like Judd and Riewoldt, but these are the exceptions rather than the rule. When you draft, you are drafting for what you expect the players to be able to do when they are 22 and onwards, not while they are 18. Teams chock-a-bloc with kids in their first team are those without any quality at the top end of the list, or those with massive injury lists. Neither is something to aspire to.

The fact that Buchanan hasn't played senior football this year is hardly the Swans fault. He badly injured himself in the off-season, only returned to playing a few weeks ago and has now reinjured himself and is out for the year. Similarly with Ablett, who has struggled with niggling injuries since he was drafted. Neither of these players has really built up the fitness base to make an impact yet, and that has shown when they have been given places in the first team.

Also look at the Swans' drafting strategy in recent years, particularly with the lower picks. At that level you either go for a mature bodied player who will never be a star but might be able to contribute immediately (eg Lokan at the Pies - I suspect he won't be around for very long in AFL footy) or you go for players who you believe can be good but are very young or very skinny. Powell, Hunt, Schneider, Sunny, Malceski all fit within this category. A similar group is those who are very raw, usually because they've played very little footy growing up. Goodes, LRT and Kennelly are three Swans examples who are now coming good (at varying degrees of development but they all look like "players"). You have to be patient with all these types of player but if they come good you might have a bargain on your hands.

Of course, we've also been affected by the number of top round draft picks traded away in the past 4 years but that's been acknowledged by the club and they've already stated that that strategy will change.

As far as the players listed as examples from other clubs are concerned, Harris hasn't actually played that much first team footy. He spent almost all of last year in the reserves and has been in and out of the Roos' team this year. Similarly with Krakouer. Johncock and Burgoyne I agree are very good players and clearly in their teams' first 22. Johncock was a bargain, drafted in the late 60s I believe. Cloke and Lonie I'm not convinced by yet - I think there's a fair bit of Magpie hype surrounding these two and I don't think they'd be regulars in the Crows, Port or Lions first teams.

[Steve]

Put simply, we've tried to get some extra value from average draft picks by taking a punt on the following types of youngsters:

• 'Raw' with a limited background but huge scope for improvement (Goodes, LRT, Dempster)
• Injured but talented (Powell, Schneider, Fixter, Davis, Thewlis)
• Skinny but talented (McVeigh, Stevens, Sundqvist, Malceski, Kennelly, Saddington)

The reality about draft picks beyond the first round is that the only players that are available are ones other clubs passed on for various reasons.

Personally I don't think that the number of players who play senior footy in the following season after being drafted is the best measure of good recruiting.

[dawson]

What about being played at all?

If any of Sundqvist, Ablett or Buchanan delisted at the end of the season what would you have to say Steve?

[Steve]

Schneider 19 games (19 y/o)
Meiklejohn 3 games (19 y/o)
Sundqvist 6 games (20 y/o)
Roberts-Thomson 11 games (19 y/o)
Powell 5 games (19 y/o)
Stevens 10 games (21 y/o)
Ablett 2 games (20 y/o)

That averages out to 3 of the above playing in the seniors every week. Considering that, generally speaking, we've had a good run with injuries, I personally don't think it is anything to be complaining about at all.

Sundqvist is no chance of being delisted at all, but if either of the others were I'd say they should have worked harder and impressed more with their opportunities (Buchanan at Port Melb last year and Ablett both this year and last).

[DST]

Re: One other thing

Originally posted by dawson
Our drafting is definitely an issue and poor decision making since 1996 has cost us dearly. No need to go into the individual cases as that has been done to death on RWO already.

I can already see this messageboard melting down as the discussion drifts toward the offseason and what we do with our list.

Unlike Brisbane, we have never had a real bad season and so never got really good picks. We've had average ones and so at best could only make slight modifications and tinkering to our list.

But for Schneider, we haven't had a young kid in some time who has made an impact and basically moved into the first XVIII.

Rocket Eade kept the kids in cotton wool for three years and for the most part, the same looks like happening.

Why would players like Sundqvist, Buchanan and Ablett stay on our list. They want to play AFL footy and that isn't happening.
They look around and see guys from the same draft such as Daniel Harris, Shaun Burgoyne, Jason Cloke, Ryan Lonie, Andrew Krakouer and John @@@@ running around and making an impact.

I wouldn't mind if some 'Big' Swans names were traded for us to get a top 5 pick. But having done that, I would be livid if the kid didn't play for like 18 months which currently seems to be the case.

We need to be drafting with an eye to be playing the kids we draft.

Dawson I admire your passion in regards to the issue, but their is no fact to your arguement.

You point out that Sydney has not had a couple of bad years like St Kilda etc so we have not had the chance to draft early, but then go and pour scorn on the recruitment process we have in place.

As others have pointed we have in the last couple of years a deliberate attempt to use some of our later draft picks to select players that were probably a year away from being drafted in the hope that we get value for that pick.

We have also supplemented this strategy with targeting established players from other clubs who can fill a specific role for the team (ie Williams for speed, Hall as a strong forward and C Bolton as third tall defender or run with player).

We are currently sitting 5th with a 12-7 records with a chance now to blood a number of promising youngsters who have had a couple of years at the club under their belt and are ready to show what they are made of.

Give or take another tall KP defender I beleive we are about to see in the next couple of years a team that can take us along way.

If I had to choose between supporting a middle of the road Swans for a couple of years while we try and adjust/blood a new list then I am more than happy. I am sure there a number of St Kilda supporters out there who would be very happy to at least look compertative while trying to rebuild.

DST

[chammond]

As others have pointed we have in the last couple of years a deliberate attempt to use some of our later draft picks to select players that were probably a year away from being drafted in the hope that we get value for that pick.

I think the fact that we've tended to draft immature 17 yos in recent years (not just with late picks) has been the main contributor to longer apprenticeships. From memory, Powell, Hunt, Schneider, Stevens, Sundqvist and Ablett were all 17yo draftees and would have been expected to take an extra year to develop. In contrast, Doyle and O'Keefe were older draftees and graduated to the senior ranks comparatively quickly.

It's interesting to note that, apart from McVeigh, last year's draftees were all in the 'more-mature' group, so we might expect to see them step up next season with any luck.

Unfortunately, injuries have a habit of mucking up the best laid plans . . .

[caj23]

It's no big secret that the swans have had some hits and misses in this department (every team does).

The one that kills me is though is selecting Luke Ablett with the selection before Mark Coughlan, apparently the Swans had shown a bit of interest in him prior to the draft. Imagine him running around in our midfield!

I'd love to be proven wrong but I can't see him or Buchanon remaining on the list next year.

[dawson]

To me, it just seems though we are not as astute in our drafting as we were in assembling the side that was dominant from 96-98.

We had a great core then (Magic, Seymour, Barry, Saddo, Nicks) but I don't feel we have consolidated on that.

We chose the wrong year to have three of the top 10 draft picks, two of the first five.

[caj23]

Your probably right Dawson, but had we chosen Lenny Hayes (11) instead of Fossie (3) it may have looked a better decision (another if only!)