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[robbieando]

Originally posted by dimelb
The first thought that occurred to me was that a fit Ball might have meant a fresher Goodes, and therefore a different last quarter. Maybe.

Yes maybe, but the rest of the side was stuffed. In all honesty no one could of stopped Brisbane in that last quarter, never mind for most of the match we were just holding on.

[chammond]

am i the only one here that thinks that results may have been different in the finals last season if Jason Ball wasnt injured?

Having Ball and/or O'Loughlin in the mix would have completely changed the dynamics of the PF, and the Swans could well have ended up winning.

As it was, with average luck, we would have been three goals up at 3QT. With Ball in the side we could well have had the game sewn up by then, and it would have been the Lions who dropped their heads in the last quarter.

Just one more on the end of 70 years of "if only".

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Ruckmans big slow thoughts for the day

Originally posted by robbieando
Thats why I believe having 5 ruckman on the list is needed. In any one match we should have 3 ruckman playing (Ball, Doyle and Goodes)

Although I may be somewhat less than entirely unbiased on the subject of the ruck, I feel moved to add my ten cents worth.

There are many different types of ruckman, both in terms of physical height/size, style/presence, versatility and readiness.

Firstly . . . height/size

You have your Giants and Supergiants, these days all are over 2 metres in height who can rely on their reach to win the ball.

You have your Monsters, whose height varies, but they have a physical strength can bear the relation to a normal afl player as you see between a 100 gamer and a brand new draftee.

Then have your mobile ruckmen, who rely on speed and leap to win the ball.

Secondly . . . style/presence

Presence. Of course some of this comes from height/size but not all, most of it's mental. Theres no point being 2 metres and 100 kilos if you lack the co-ordination or are unwilling to make use of your physique.

Style, does he palm or can he hammer as well? Can he take a contested mark or just make a contest. Can he leap or does he need to go body to body . . .

Thirdly . . . Versatility.

It's a relatively new thing but it's important to be able to do more than ruck and sit on a bench. It's also important that they can make an impact quickly (go into the forward line and grab a goal or two before the opposition defence can adjust).

Lastly . . . Readiness
Not just the build up of muscles that turns a beanstork into a ruckman, but the training, to feel the way an apponent moves, to ride the bumps, to "see" where your runners are.

Of course no Ruckman should not be expected to ruck all day, even those that do so and who don't depend on mobility or leap, lose their edge towards the end of most quarters.
Nor is it really a fitness issue, the margin is tiny, the difference can be a little as the length of a finger, a split seconds slowness to react or a slightly diminished awareness.

The AFL has evolved the game as a "running game", and many thought the dinosaurs were going to die out, but I don't think so.

If ruckmen become more versatile, are used as shock weapons in a ruck rotation, and the umpires relearn how to bounce then they will survive.

So do the Swans have the 5 needed ruckman?

Jason Ball,
A giant, he is competent in the ruck but he can take contested pack marks and is comparatively mobile. In his career he has functioned well as both a forward and a defender. Excellent.

Ste Doyle,
Almost a supergiant. Injuries have delayed his readiness and more importantly his presence and style, but he can mark and he can kick straight so he can make good use of his time as a forward.

Adam Goodes
An incredibly mobile ruckman with a great leap. He is so radically different to other rucks that his combination with the more conventional Ball/Doyle will be great to see (An interesting ploy to pull during a game might be to have both him and Ball in the square at once?) He has begun developing his body work but he still needs to work on taking contested marks and he doesn't exhibit a lot of confidence in his kicking for goal.

LRT
A great leap, which he still mistimes a bit in the rugby manner, relatively mobile, so he could function in the ruck. But his reading of the play and body work will need lots of work. I think he should be aimed at a key position in the backline, instead of the ruck.

Meikeljohn
Nether a giant nor a mobile ruckman, there are thoughts of turning him into key position player. HE's unlikely to grow taller, nor is his mobility going to improve radically which means if he is to play in the ruck he needs to develop his strength to the level of a monster.

Speaking of which, playing Barry in the ruck (except as an temporary emergency measure like against Port) is a waste. He is going to be a truly great centre half forward.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by CureTheSane
I don't like Goodes being called a ruckman, even as a 'spare'
He is wasted there IMO.
HE should only ever play there out of desperation.

Ummm... he just won a Brownlow playing there - we need more of that sort of desperate act!!

However, I do agree to some extent. I think he needs to play as a ruckman as most opposing ruckmen cannot match up on him. If he plays as a ruck rover, then he may get less freedom from opposition tagging (however I expect more of that this year anyway).

I think he should play as the around-the-ground ruckman, with Doyle/Ball/Meiklejohn/whoever else playing as the centre tap ruckman and dropping either into the backline or to the forward pocket.

[chammond]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
Ummm... he just won a Brownlow playing there - we need more of that sort of desperate act!!

However, I do agree to some extent. I think he needs to play as a ruckman as most opposing ruckmen cannot match up on him. If he plays as a ruck rover, then he may get less freedom from opposition tagging (however I expect more of that this year anyway).

I think he should play as the around-the-ground ruckman, with Doyle/Ball/Meiklejohn/whoever else playing as the centre tap ruckman and dropping either into the backline or to the forward pocket.

I think it's worrying to hear Roos talking about finding a different spot for Goodes . . . . surely that was the mistake that Eade made?

Goodes made AFL Rising Star, All-Australian and Brownlow Medal as a ruckman. We need to focus on leveraging off this amazing talent, rather than trying to force him into some stereo-typed "key position".

Ideally I think he should ruck the centre bounce, then rove his own tap, then kick it to himself at CHF, where he takes a pack mark, goes back and kicks a goal from 50 metres out.

[Tooth Fairy]

Originally posted by chammond
I think it's worrying to hear Roos talking about finding a different spot for Goodes . . . . surely that was the mistake that Eade made?

Goodes made AFL Rising Star, All-Australian and Brownlow Medal as a ruckman. We need to focus on leveraging off this amazing talent, rather than trying to force him into some stereo-typed "key position".

Ideally I think he should ruck the centre bounce, then rove his own tap, then kick it to himself at CHF, where he takes a pack mark, goes back and kicks a goal from 50 metres out.

Everything you just said is highly likely except that last bit. Poor bastard can't kick over a jam tin when the pressure is on

[CureTheSane]

Originally posted by NMWBloods


However, I do agree to some extent. I think he needs to play as a ruckman as most opposing ruckmen cannot match up on him.

By all means.
If playing Goodes in the ruck is gonna throw out the opposition set up, then fine.

But I don't like the idea of him being labeled a ruckman.
I'd guess that you'll find most of the Bwornlow votes he recieved in the games where he was able to play around the ground.

He is truely turning out to be a bit freakish.
To hear Sheedy say that he can't think of a play who matches him is a big wrap.

[Charlie]

I want Goodesy to continue doing some ruckwork around the ground, but I hold my breath every single time he goes into the centre bounce... I don't want his body stuffed by the age of 28-29 like Scott Wynd or Shaun Rehn...

As long as he stays fit, it's only a matter of time before the league wakes up and recognises him as the best player in the game.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Originally posted by chammond
Ideally I think he should ruck the centre bounce, then rove his own tap, then kick it to himself at CHF, where he takes a pack mark, goes back and kicks a goal from 50 metres out.

Well it's an interesting thought, he can take the centre bounce and rove his own tap at the moment. I can't see him ever marking his own kick st CHF . . . .

Perhaps we should settle for fim learning to kick goals from 50 metres. Frequently when he gets a set shot at range, you can see him look around to pass but.
Even worse everytime he gets a long set-shot he gets this extremely worried look on his face. Then more often than not he misses the shot ~ someone really needs to help him through that.

[robbieando]

Dunks was a better set shot at goal than Goodes

[chammond]

Originally posted by Ruckman
Well it's an interesting thought, he can take the centre bounce and rove his own tap at the moment. I can't see him ever marking his own kick st CHF . . . .

They do it all the time in rugby union . . . .

it's just a matter of teaching him to kick it high enough!