Struggle for hurt Doyle to stand tall

[Jimmy C]

I always thought Saddo played his best footy on the back flank. The notion that he will be CHB is not realistic in my view. He won't deliver good Footy when he's being played out of position. I think the expression "You can take a horse to water-But you can't make it drink!" sums up his current situation. FWIW, I think that Bolton C is stronger CHB material, and this should be developed further.

[DST]

Originally posted by Jimmy C
I always thought Saddo played his best footy on the back flank. The notion that he will be CHB is not realistic in my view. He won't deliver good Footy when he's being played out of position. I think the expression "You can take a horse to water-But you can't make it drink!" sums up his current situation. FWIW, I think that Bolton C is stronger CHB material, and this should be developed further.

Agree with you that C Bolton is much stonger than Saddington, but problem is no matter how hard we try we just are not going to be able to get him to grow another 3 inch's.

If we have to go with C Bolton holding down CHB all year we are in real trouble.

DST

[robbieando]

Originally posted by DST
Agree with you that C Bolton is much stonger than Saddington, but problem is no matter how hard we try we just are not going to be able to get him to grow another 3 inch's.

If we have to go with C Bolton holding down CHB all year we are in real trouble.

DST

Both Saddo and C. Bolton aren't the most ideal options for CHB and your right we are in real trouble if one is the CHB for the entire season, however there is no reason why in the short term at least why we can't use either one depending on the team. So you would have Saddo at CHB, if we were playing a team with one option up forward who would be taken by Schauble and you could have Bolton on the teams with the 2nd option up forward. It worked last season, no reason why it can't this season. Personally I rather see Rogers or LRT get the position, but its too early to tell whether they are up to it.

[Reggi]

Why in particular are we in so much trouble if Saddington plays CHB all year?

He played there in 2002 - I do not remeber CHB being a big problem?

What happened in the meantime that I do not know about?

Or should we sack Schauble as well seeing as his record against Lloyd is crap - demolished by Lynch in the prelim. Fevola has towelled him twice 6 & 8 goals shocking kick and too slow - surely we are stuffed there.

Leo Barry's effort on Nathan Thompson was equally appaling gotta do something about that one?

Saddo will be fine if we had an equal quality midfield to his abiltiy to hold down CHB we would be a certain top 4 finisher.

As it is we remain very ordinary around the ball - in our list of problems. There is a little bit of glossing going on about C Bolton even in rnd 21 if Brown had kicked straight he would have had a very ordinary day - he is either of too short and not strong enough for CHB - although I've noticed many have very selective memories regarding his performances.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Reggi
Why in particular are we in so much trouble if Saddington plays CHB all year?

Because he can't really handle the best and strongest forwards.

He played there in 2002 - I do not remeber CHB being a big problem?

Having Dunkley helped a lot.

What happened in the meantime that I do not know about?

Dunkley retired.


Or should we sack Schauble as well seeing as his record against Lloyd is crap - demolished by Lynch in the prelim. Fevola has towelled him twice 6 & 8 goals shocking kick and too slow - surely we are stuffed there.

Leo Barry's effort on Nathan Thompson was equally appaling gotta do something about that one?

No one is basing Saddo's performance on a single game.


Saddo will be fine if we had an equal quality midfield to his abiltiy to hold down CHB we would be a certain top 4 finisher.

I think we need a midfield that is much better than Saddo is at CHB.


As it is we remain very ordinary around the ball - in our list of problems.

Our midfield is definitely a key and needs a lot of work to increase clearances.


There is a little bit of glossing going on about C Bolton even in rnd 21 if Brown had kicked straight he would have had a very ordinary day - he is either of too short and not strong enough for CHB - although I've noticed many have very selective memories regarding his performances.

One of the key differences between Saddo and Bolton against Brown was the way they played them. Brown outpointed Saddo nearly every time, outmarked him close to goal, and recovered better. Bolton gave Brown a strong contest, was able to spoil him and also not be beaten on the ground, and forced Brown to get a lot of his possessions up the ground. Additionally, Brown's shots when Saddo was on him were much closer to goal, which was one of the reasons why he kicked better on Saddo.

Nevertheless, Bolton is not our answer to CHB and neither is Shauble. They do a reasonable fill-in job but definitely need a lot of help from the midfield. We really need to develop or find a key position defender.

[Reggi]

You are theorising - this is not an academic study.

I have watched that Bris vs Syd games a lot there is no difference in the distance. That is an outright guess.

J Saddington had 3 marks and 3 goals kicked on him. Bolton had 5 marks and 4 behinds - as Brown said after the game if he had not missed those relatively easy shots game over.

Bolton also did not force Brown up the ground again this is fiction of his 8 marks Brown had 7 scoring shots.

As I keep asking and you guys keep not presenting where is the evidence to support these claims.

Incredible ability Dunkley if he played on his own and Saddington's opponents - again theory.

When - and especially when he was fit - were all of these occasions he was towelled up?

[Tooth Fairy]

Originally posted by Jimmy C
I think the expression "You can take a horse to water-But you can't make it drink!" sums up his current situation.

I thought it was "Feed a horse a fish and it will eat for a day. Teach a horse to fish and...."?

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Reggi
You are theorising - this is not an academic study.

I'm not theorising in the slightest. I watched the rd 20 game again last month and counted every one of Brown's possessions.


I have watched that Bris vs Syd games a lot there is no difference in the distance. That is an outright guess.

No - it is based on observing the rd 20 game in great detail (although I don't recall as well now as I did a month or so ago).


J Saddington had 3 marks and 3 goals kicked on him. Bolton had 5 marks and 4 behinds - as Brown said after the game if he had not missed those relatively easy shots game over.

On JS, Brown's stats came in about 14 min (IIRC). On CB, Brown's stats came in nearly 3.5 qtrs.

Against JS, there were 4 contests - Brown outmarked him three times, all within 40m of goal and not much angle. One time he didn't, he recovered much faster and fed a goal to someone else (Keating?). He also kicked three goals.

Against CB, Brown took 2 marks on the wing, 2 just inside the 50 and one on a slight angle at about 40. CB was also able to spoil Brown about 3 times.

Bolton also did not force Brown up the ground again this is fiction of his 8 marks Brown had 7 scoring shots.

Brown had 3 scoring shots in half a qtr against JS and 5 scoring shots against CB in 3.5 qtrs. He had 3 marks against JS in 0.5 qtrs, all within 40m, and only 5 marks against CB, 2 of which were on the wing.


As I keep asking and you guys keep not presenting where is the evidence to support these claims.

The above is evidence.


Incredible ability Dunkley if he played on his own and Saddington's opponents - again theory.

Talk about deliberately misreading. Dunkley was obviously taking the best forward at that time.

When - and especially when he was fit - were all of these occasions he was towelled up?

Well, from last season, there were the 0.5 qtr against Brown (3 goals), 1 qtr against Tarrant (5.3 goals), a game against Medhurst (3.2 goals), and a game against Carey (5.3 goals).

Never said he was hopeless, but the above is hardly a great effort. Sure, he was injured last season, but this has been noted in the past and naturally I can't recall specifics from previous seasons at this stage. If he was injured and not match fit, then he shouldn't be playing.

[Plugger46]

Originally posted by Reggi
J Saddington had 3 marks and 3 goals kicked on him. Bolton had 5 marks and 4 behinds - as Brown said after the game if he had not missed those relatively easy shots game over.

When - and especially when he was fit - were all of these occasions he was towelled up?

Saddo played on Brown for about 15 minutes, and consequently Brisbane were off to a flyer. If he'd stayed on him, Brown would've kicked double figures I reckon, Saddo was being totally out-classed.

Saddington is without a shadow of a doubt, the most overrated player on our list. Brad Fisher out-marked him the other day!!! Saddo is scared, he lacks a heart, and it's about time people worked out that he is not the answer at CHB. Could someone enlighten me on what he actually does? He continually gets out-marked, drops uncontested marks, doesn't find the footy enough when he plays off a flank or wing, and misses targets reguarly.

I'll tell you some of his beatings Reggi:

Chris Tarrant - People think Saddo did a good job on him, Tarrant had 15 touches, took 10 marks and kicked 5 goals 3. Tarrant was quiet in the 3rd term but only because Collingwood were getting towelled up in the midfield. As soon as Collingwood started to win it in the midfield, in the last qtr, Tarrant nearly pinched the game from us, as Saddington was being thrown around like a rag-doll.

Wayne Carey - Carey, virtually finished, played his best game for the year by a country mile on Saddington, and that was the only reason we lost that game. Saddington looked like a child and was beaten comprehensively.

Trent Croad - Had a terrible year, but still managed to stitch up Saddington, in the 1st qtr, he was then moved off him, and we didn't see Trent for the rest of the day.

I could be wrong but I think Rawlings also killed him in the heritage game.

There is no way in the world he will ever make a good CHB. He doesn't have the physique, nor the ability IMHO.

[liz]

Originally posted by Plugger46
Saddo played on Brown for about 15 minutes, and consequently Brisbane were off to a flyer. If he'd stayed on him, Brown would've kicked double figures I reckon, Saddo was being totally out-classed.

Brown actually comes out of the blocks and blitzes teams early in lots of games - not just Sydney. However, he has rarely - if ever - been able to sustain that effort/impact for whole games. No doubt as he gets older and fitter he will start to do this, as Carey did at his peak.

There is no doubt he towelled up Saddo in that burst but he may well have done the same regardless of who was playing on him. I accept that is supposition but it does suggest "reasonable doubt" that it was all Saddo's fault.

And while Bolton did a good job on him for the rest of the game, his performance has been slightly over-rated. As others have noted, Brown missed two goals he really should have kicked and at least one other he could have kicked.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Saddo had a great season last year - it was clearly down on the previous couple of seasons. Nor is anyone claiming he is one of the competition's premier defenders.

The "case for" Saddo is analagous to a defence - ie that the evidence presented (based on two OK games at the start of the season when everyone is still warming up and incidents from his least successful year - 2003) is not consistent with the degree of the charges that seem to be being levelled against him.

All the players on our list - including Goodes - do daft things at times, make bad decisions and have room for improvement. If they were all "perfect footballers" football would actually become quite dull. And we'd be way over the salary cap!!!

[monopoly19]

Originally posted by Plugger46
....he lacks a heart...

I don't get it when people say this (and yes, I understand that you are not talking about the actual organ as such). If he didn't have the motivation, passion, love or desire to play top-level AFL, he wouldn't be playing it. You don't just fall onto a club list and stay there six years by ability/talent (which, listening to some of you guys, Saddington also seems to lack).

[robbieando]

Originally posted by lizz
Brown actually comes out of the blocks and blitzes teams early in lots of games - not just Sydney. However, he has rarely - if ever - been able to sustain that effort/impact for whole games. No doubt as he gets older and fitter he will start to do this, as Carey did at his peak.

There is no doubt he towelled up Saddo in that burst but he may well have done the same regardless of who was playing on him. I accept that is supposition but it does suggest "reasonable doubt" that it was all Saddo's fault.

And while Bolton did a good job on him for the rest of the game, his performance has been slightly over-rated. As others have noted, Brown missed two goals he really should have kicked and at least one other he could have kicked.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Saddo had a great season last year - it was clearly down on the previous couple of seasons. Nor is anyone claiming he is one of the competition's premier defenders.

The "case for" Saddo is analagous to a defence - ie that the evidence presented (based on two OK games at the start of the season when everyone is still warming up and incidents from his least successful year - 2003) is not consistent with the degree of the charges that seem to be being levelled against him.

All the players on our list - including Goodes - do daft things at times, make bad decisions and have room for improvement. If they were all "perfect footballers" football would actually become quite dull. And we'd be way over the salary cap!!!

That is all agreeble, however there are two questions that must be asked in this debate and they are 1) do you believe that on current form Saddington should be in the team? and 2) Is Saddington suited to playing at CHB and if no does he have any place in the defence set up?

My answers are yes and no, though I can't see him playing anywhere other than down back except in a key position role. I can't fault Saddington's value to the team and the defence, I just don't believe with Saddington at CHB we can win a premiership against the likes of Brisbane. Put him on the 3rd or 4th defender, in fact match him up on a forward that suits him, but against the likes of Brown and Carey I just rather go with someone else who has the strength to match those two players.

Also you have to remember Saddington wasn't drafted as a defender, but a midfielder who turned out to be a handy defender and has since proven to be even better than that. I just believe he just hasn't got the "brains" to play at CHB. When in a pact he gets caught out deciding whether to mark or punch the ball and in that split second is forced to go for a mark that he really has little hope in getting. No doubt he can add value to the defence and any talk of dropping out of the senior side at this moment (don't forget Saddo, could have a shocking start to the season and thus force the selectors to drop him) or even trading him (not brought up to my knowledge) is stupid and crazy. I think the debate should focus mainly on what position to play him, which is something we debated at length with Goodes (thus leading to the stupid trade talk) and look how good that turned out.

[Reggi]

Robbi that ain't right, I work with one of Saddo's junior coaches - Saddo made a name for himself by keeping a then red hot Brad Ottens quiet in the U/18s at CHB. Was always looking to develop into a running CHB.

In both the Tarrant cases Saddo kept him quiet when it mattered - he did tire and Tarrant came into the game - but it was all over by then. Croad and Carey similar to Brown - he clearly was struggling with fitness at the end of 2003.

Which is why I keep asking before he was injured when were thses things going on.

Lizz was spot on on Brown although Saddington was badly caught out of position - Bolton did no better.

I was waiting for the 'no heart' comment cause I figured all along he suffered from his relaxed nature and that calm look on his face - as distinct from player s like J Bolton and Schauble who always look like they are busting a boiler and a picture of concentration.

Given the level of nonsensical answer I keep getting I am thoroughly expecting to here it's his star sign - betting that Scorpio's don't make good CHBs.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Reggi
Lizz was spot on on Brown although Saddington was badly caught out of position - Bolton did no better.

Now that's just rubbish and conveniently igrnoing the facts. Bolton beat Brown in a couple of contests and clearly did a better job than Saddo.

You complain about the ubsubstantiated comments against Saddo, yet you keep making excusees for him, often not based on anything.

The proponents for Saddo as CHB seem rather selective in what they respond to.

[TheHood]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
Now that's just rubbish and conveniently igrnoing the facts. Bolton beat Brown in a couple of contests and clearly did a better job than Saddo.

You complain about the ubsubstantiated comments against Saddo, yet you keep making excusees for him, often not based on anything.

The proponents for Saddo as CHB seem rather selective in what they respond to.

Not only that, its a faulted comparison because Saddo SHOULD have done better on Brown (HIS MAN). Bolton (shorter and smaller) was sent into plug a gap and do a job and there is no question, HE DID!

Bolton in defence and Baz in attack were the 2 single most important factors that day.