Swans inclusions for Eagles match.

[Newbie]

I believe Roos is still trying hard to develop the list. But how much he got to play with? From what on show to date, I am edging toward "not very much". That is the real worry .

[swans_premiers]

Originally posted by penga
we are playing the eagles - they dont have anyone tall to defend

matera~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[hammo]

Originally posted by swans_premiers
matera~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matera is a midget

[Bleed Red Blood]

Originally posted by hammo
Matera is a midget

Fletcher played on him.

Saddington on him or Crouch?(tough decision).

[Diego]

Originally posted by Gunn
That is exactly the opposite philosophy to that proposed by Paul Roos when he was selected as coach and which was so whole heartedly endorsed by so many on RAWO.COM.

I haven't commented on this before but what I find really depressing is not so much our unexpected losses ( I expected them last year) but how quickly so many have jumped off the band wagon and are so willing to stick the knife into our coach.

I have believed from the beginning of Roos' tenure that we have a average list. Few stars and few we could trade or even give away as demonstrated by our inability to trade at the end of last year. We have a small backline. We have a midfield that is either aging or unskilled. We have one ageing ruckman, one that is too short and one that is probably too unskilled. Our depth is affected by injury and/or lack of talent. Paul Roos got the most out of out list last year but this year injuries and the difficulty of getting all players to play at their maximum ability for 100 minutes may be telling. I am pretty sure Roos thought we would finish bottom half of the ladder last year and that he would get good draft picks rather than middling.

I am prepared to support him for a few more years at least. What about you? I do want to see some major improvemants in talent identification at the next draft.

Thats actually spot on!

[robbieando]

Originally posted by Gunn
I do want to see some major improvemants in talent identification at the next draft.

Ditto, I believe while we have got some great value out of the later picks and from the rookie list, our early picks haven't been anywhere near where they should be and in turn it has effected the quality of our list. Its too early to rate how McVeigh and Willoughby will turn out, but since 96 how many of our first rounders that are still at the club, are key players in the team and have proven themselves worthy of the pick. I can only think of Jude and maybe at a stretch Saddo and Fosdike. Frankly its just not good enough.

[Go Swannies]

Originally posted by Gunn
That is exactly the opposite philosophy to that proposed by Paul Roos when he was selected as coach and which was so whole heartedly endorsed by so many on RAWO.COM.

I haven't commented on this before but what I find really depressing is not so much our unexpected losses ( I expected them last year) but how quickly so many have jumped off the band wagon and are so willing to stick the knife into our coach.

I have believed from the beginning of Roos' tenure that we have a average list. Few stars and few we could trade or even give away as demonstrated by our inability to trade at the end of last year. We have a small backline. We have a midfield that is either aging or unskilled. We have one ageing ruckman, one that is too short and one that is probably too unskilled. Our depth is affected by injury and/or lack of talent. Paul Roos got the most out of out list last year but this year injuries and the difficulty of getting all players to play at their maximum ability for 100 minutes may be telling. I am pretty sure Roos thought we would finish bottom half of the ladder last year and that he would get good draft picks rather than middling.

I am prepared to support him for a few more years at least. What about you? I do want to see some major improvemants in talent identification at the next draft.

I find this really negative. I think we didn't trade at the end of last year because there were very few we wanted to lose. Last year we thought we were creating "stars" - this year we want to buy them? I remember in March we were saying that our top 22 was up with just about any in the comp. We always knew we'd suffer if we were hit with lots of injuries.

If you want us to do really well in the trade period then pray that we lose this weekend. And the next. And the next. In fact we can give our juniors some invaluable experience as seniors to ensure it.

Of course, if you want to buy lots of talent from other teams and get in under the salary cap then we'll need to get rid of Bazza and Goodes because paying them what they are now worth won't give us must headroom. And, to make sure we don't waste the money we need to get senior players who have proved their worth so we can only expect a few years from them before retirement.

I find the rapid assumption that Roos is an idiot depressing too (I asked if we were rushing to adopt the Tigers fan attitude- then we lost to them too).

Winning hastens development. I was really proud of the individuals in the team last year and I love seeing some of them continue to grow - Pebbles and Kirk, Crouch and Bazza amongst them (Saddo too). I don't want to regard them as mere trade bait.

You say "Few stars and few we could trade or even give away as demonstrated by our inability to trade at the end of last year." Look back - we didn't try because we were developing the team and Roos said he would only want one or two specific talents and they weren't available. You seem to be a year behind Mick Malthouse who said last year that few of the Swans would get a start elsewhere. Then we had more in the International team than any other club? Go figure why they'd ask no talents like Swans to join the team.

Let's cut to the chase: who of the team this weekend do you think we should trade? (And bear in mind they certainly will hear what you think.) We have some senior players playing below their best but we can't trade them (no value). And we were even soft enough to let Kell play out his last year when he was well off his peak, just because he was a club hero ! See ya Willo and Stewie. Let's not give Nick the chance to play his 150th game, just on the off chance that people think he's being brought in over a more deserving youngster.

We have a club, a team and a coach. Our choice is to either support them all or snipe from the sidelines. I'm going to support them no matter what. I'll hate the losses and despair if I think they aren't trying hard. And generally I'm well disposed towards the club, like and admire the members of the team, and don't think I can coach better than Paul Roos.

Go Swannies.

[liz]

Originally posted by robbieando
Ditto, I believe while we have got some great value out of the later picks and from the rookie list, our early picks haven't been anywhere near where they should be and in turn it has effected the quality of our list. Its too early to rate how McVeigh and Willoughby will turn out, but since 96 how many of our first rounders that are still at the club, are key players in the team and have proven themselves worthy of the pick. I can only think of Jude and maybe at a stretch Saddo and Fosdike. Frankly its just not good enough.

Crouch? If you look at who else is still playing from the year he was drafted you will see that he has turned out to be a very good choice, even as a first rounder.

And apart from the three you named - Saddo, Fozzie and Jude - we have had very few first round picks in recent years. In fact, pretty much the only other one was Fitzgerald and his injury woes can reasonably be put down to bad luck (for him as well as the club).

In 1999, 2000 and 2001 we traded away our first round pick for Ball, Williams and Hall respectively.

McVeigh and Willoughby are far far too early to tell but McVeigh is showing as much as we could reasonably expect him to at this stage.

Of the second rounders, Doyle and James (as FS picks) have both had wretched injury runs but both could yet become important players, and as talls their would have taken time anyway to develop the physcial strength. LRT and Powell still need more time. The two slight disappointments during this period have been Stevens and Ablett.

I'm not arguing that the recruitment record has been fantastic since 1998 but it would probably stack up reasonably well against that of most other clubs, with the constraints of the trading strategy adopted. And as you mentioned, the club has found some real quality from the lower reaches of the drafting system in Goodes, O'Keefe, Kirk, Schneider, Kennelly and maybe now Bevan as well. Most of these players would easily get a run in 13 of the other clubs, some in 15 of them.

[Go Swannies]

I'd like to apologise for sounding off last night (my post a few before this). I was just feeling really frustrated that we have lost four games (and three of these to good, inform, teams) and already we seem to want to reinvent the wheel. I'd just like start winning more with the team we have.

After I posted I finally watched the last 1/4 of the Tigers game. It was bad but not as awful as I thought. If we start playing with some consistency in all quarters we'll be there in September.

[floppinab]

Mmmmm, interesting if the weather eventuates during the course of the match.

MEDIUM RANGE FORECAST FOR PERTH FOR:
Saturday : Afternoon, overnight showers. Min: 8 Max: 23

[Dpw]

Showers will have little effect on the game conditions as Subi is very well sheltered and has arguably the best drainge of any ground.

[Gunn]

Originally posted by Go Swannies
I find this really negative. I think we didn't trade at the end of last year because there were very few we wanted to lose. Last year we thought we were creating "stars" - this year we want to buy them? I remember in March we were saying that our top 22 was up with just about any in the comp. We always knew we'd suffer if we were hit with lots of injuries.

If you want us to do really well in the trade period then pray that we lose this weekend. And the next. And the next. In fact we can give our juniors some invaluable experience as seniors to ensure it.

Of course, if you want to buy lots of talent from other teams and get in under the salary cap then we'll need to get rid of Bazza and Goodes because paying them what they are now worth won't give us must headroom. And, to make sure we don't waste the money we need to get senior players who have proved their worth so we can only expect a few years from them before retirement.

I find the rapid assumption that Roos is an idiot depressing too (I asked if we were rushing to adopt the Tigers fan attitude- then we lost to them too).

Winning hastens development. I was really proud of the individuals in the team last year and I love seeing some of them continue to grow - Pebbles and Kirk, Crouch and Bazza amongst them (Saddo too). I don't want to regard them as mere trade bait.

You say "Few stars and few we could trade or even give away as demonstrated by our inability to trade at the end of last year." Look back - we didn't try because we were developing the team and Roos said he would only want one or two specific talents and they weren't available. You seem to be a year behind Mick Malthouse who said last year that few of the Swans would get a start elsewhere. Then we had more in the International team than any other club? Go figure why they'd ask no talents like Swans to join the team.

Let's cut to the chase: who of the team this weekend do you think we should trade? (And bear in mind they certainly will hear what you think.) We have some senior players playing below their best but we can't trade them (no value). And we were even soft enough to let Kell play out his last year when he was well off his peak, just because he was a club hero ! See ya Willo and Stewie. Let's not give Nick the chance to play his 150th game, just on the off chance that people think he's being brought in over a more deserving youngster.

We have a club, a team and a coach. Our choice is to either support them all or snipe from the sidelines. I'm going to support them no matter what. I'll hate the losses and despair if I think they aren't trying hard. And generally I'm well disposed towards the club, like and admire the members of the team, and don't think I can coach better than Paul Roos.

Go Swannies.

I think you have misunderstood me. I gave what I believe is an accurate assessment of the team last year. It is my assessment. It is also an assessment I believe was shared by Paul Roos. He said as much himself. Few of our players got a guernsey in the best 100 in the AFL last year on many of the lists published. Few got a guernsey this year. Contrary to what you say, I recall reading that that quite a number of our players were listed as available for trade at the end of last year with little interest. I haven't suggested we trade anyone. I just made reference to the perceived quality of the list by outsiders. Supporters tend to either love or hate their players usually depending on whether the team is winning or losing. We are a bit myopic. The view of outside commetnators is often more instructive.

I don't want to lose this weekend, the next or at all. I do believe playing Warfe for example is a retrograde step as it flies in the face of what Roos stated plan is. Mediocrity to me is finishing between 5 and 12 and sustained mediocrity leads to more of the same as teams in those positions don't get access to the few "stars" that are drafted each year. They have to be lucky, better informed or more skillful in their recruiting departments to overcome it. You can't rely on luck or the vagaries of late order recruiting to get you up the ladder.

I'll comment on Nicks seeing as you brought up his name. I like Matthew Nicks and have for years. He is a great servant of the club and has been a great player both back and forward. Nicks has not been in great form in the last couple of years due I suspect to injury. Matthew Nicks is a far better player than Warfe has ever been. I haven't seen him play at all since his last senior game so I don't know his form. That decision is one for the selecors. They think he is obviously ready and I am pleased about that as Nicks when playing well is a great addition to the team. Nicks however should not be played IMO purely to get him to 150. We aren't good enough to allow that luxury. We need to play a player who is good enough or who will become good enough with game time. When the choice is between two players who are likely to make an equal contribution then I believe the selectors will choose the one with a future. That is how it should be IMO.

"Winning" does IMO hasten development. What we need IMO is a good structure we can develop. By that I mean a good spine of the right size, good young rucks with potential and a mix of speedy mid size players who can play other positions. When we have that we can develop the list through winning. We need to recruit players that give our list the right balance. We are crying out for two big key defenders, a strong ruckman and a some "skilful' midfielders.

I support the direction Roos wants to take us and I support him. You may criticize me for what I have said but I have said what I believe, however unpalatable that truth as I perceive it is.

[Go Swannies]

Gunn,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I agree with many of the points you make. But I still think we'll do better developing the talent we have than looking to develop by trades, etc. I think Roos has done a good job in nurturing talent and I think that, under him, quite a few more of the Swans list would be rated more highly than they were early last year. Unless you get a lucky break with trades you are buying another team's cast-off. Yes, we need to do as well as possible in the draft but I wouldn't trade a ladder position for a better draft choice. A good draft pick will help us in, maybe, 2006 or later?

This year and last, the competition has been very close. From memory of last season, R22 decided whether the Swans would be 4th or 7th. Teams shouldn't give up too soon.

As we are experiencing, there are just huge intangibles in AFL footy. A few lucky kicks or even umpiring calls and we'd be 5/2 and considering us well on track. But the team isn't cohesive at present and the mistakes they have always made are costing us hard in close finishes. This time last year it was far from certain that the Lions would play finals. If we win the flag this year, we'll be told that we just developed from a great season in 2003 and the current short "slump" will be ignored. But there needs to be a spark to get the team firing again - maybe it'll be something as simple as Magic being back this weekend (or the rain holding off). Or we'll lose this weekend and the slog will continue. Personally, I'm going to see if my Grand-Final-guarantee scarf has dried out yet and head to the pub in Alexandria tomorrow to watch the Swans finals campaign get back on track.

[EMJ]

Spot on 'Go Swannies' I was about to post a reply in regards to trade and support of Coach.
Goodness it certainly doesn't take long to bring the knives out by others on this site.
For goodness sake it is not going to be a quick win flag. Was never designed to be and Roos is not making dramatic changes. I wish all the comparison to Eade would stop too.

Eade was a good coach for a while - he coached under pressure from Collis etc I feel. Very hard situation to work in.

Roos is different to Eade and I wish people would look to the future for the build up of our team. We have talent but it needs to be developed - they aren't all going to develop instantly - so give up knockers and let us just be great supporters.
Write to the club and support those reaching milestones and be outspoken in support and not knocking of the club as a whole.

[Alec]

I totally agree about blooding young players, up to a point. But you have to get the balance right. AFL careers are shorter on average than in the entire history of footy. I think it's around 3 years now and possibly falling.

We're seeing rookies and 2nd & 3rd year players sustaining injuries (particularly hamstrings) at a rate which used to be the domain of "older" players when their bodies started to develop chronic issues. Raising the age of the draft hasn't really done much to stem this.

I agree that young players develop when the acid is put on them. And we've seen good signs - Bevan a case in point. But you reach a stage where letting veterans bash the crap out of them stops being helpful and starts seriously threatening the future of the list.

Brisbane has been criticised for several seasons about how protective they've been of their young players. In retrospect, you'd have to say their strategy has worked a treat. Their hardened list has cossetted a number of young players that have had a long time to train alongside them and learn from their experience.

The key is: Brisbane have been allowed to do this because of onfield success.

The opposite tactic is to go the roads of Geelong and St Kilda. Their young lists have been hanging out in the wind for several seasons. Sure they've turned it around (only just in Geelong's case), but their supporters had to watch in agony for a number of woeful years to reach this point.

Rogers is in the side this week. I could be wrong. But IMHO Roos has done a pretty good job of balancing the youth and experience in the squad. Roos would have loved to keep old Cressa around players like Bevan, McVeigh, and Schneider a year longer, too.

Nicks was a standout in the final against Port last year. And every year of experience is a plus for our young side.