The Fickle Finger Of The Frustrated Fan

[BAM_BAM]

The fickle finger of the frustrated fan is always looking for someone to point at.

Before you all click the back arrow and turn away from a long post, that you may think is one of my "Be Happy Don't bag the players" posts, read on.

This year more than last I notice these types of posts are popping up more often than not.

What type? You ask.

Something many call "Bagging Players".

I've been thinking about this over the past few days and have what in my opinion is something worth thinking about.

Why is it happening more this year?

We played better than anyone thought we would last year. We lost some of our stalwarts and with a new Coach, we played 1 quarter short of making the Grand Final. It was a good year to be a Swan. Not a great year by some standards but a good one.

This year we have more or less the same cattle but less positive results. We've had a lot more injuries and a lot of dodgy decisions hamper us. That's no excuse as all clubs have this happen from year to year. The good ones adapt and overcome. Not that we're not a good club and can't do that. Hence the frustration mounting with supporters.

Can we do better? Absolutely. Will we do better? I think so. Do we each have players who we hate to see singled out? Obviously.

Ultimately at the end of the day we want a flag or 2 or 3 or 20 in our lifetimes. Will we see this? I hope so.

I know we all get frustrated when our team loses and human nature as it is we look for a reason for this. For the last 3 years the only club who can bandy about the expression 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' is Brisbane. But I bet Leigh and co don't do that and that's why they are the team and club they are.

When you think about it we all as individuals want to be recognized as exceptional (and anyone who thinks otherwise, take a moment and think about it again). Players don't go out there to do badly, sometimes it just happens, but that doesn't mean they accept it and neither should we.

I don't agree with every post on here, but what I do respect is the right for every person to express their opinion, in a cordial way.

I know my user id is what I think is a clever link to my favourite Player?s nickname (for which I can't take credit of thinking of as it was given to me by my Sister as has now become my nickname for her) and I have an avatar that really would be suited to a chick who is a "groupie". Some people may see me that way, some don't. Your opinion. and I respect that.

I think we all need to be mindful that this forum is one of the best many of us have been associated with. It has it's moments of insanity, but generally the people on here are cordial and express themselves well. I don't believe anyone of us think what the players do is an easy job, but part of being a member of RWO is the passion we share for our Swans, and it is our fickle fingers we are pointing when we come on here and discuss or as some call it bag the players performances. And really it is their performances we are discussing. Not them as people.

It's a way we all connect. I have found a site in RWO where I can talk freely about one of my passions. I never thought that being a member here would mean I?d meet people who I am privileged to call my friends.

What I guess I'm saying is that you may not agree with everything on here, but isn't what's on here is the reason you keep coming back?

It's well known that The Players and The Club read this forum. I like to think that feedback, no matter how it's presented can always be made into a positive. Office politics has shown me that if it is perceived to be, even if that perception is not necessarily correct, we can grow from that and make the changes required to excel.

The events of the past week have made me look at things a little harder and although we all have differing opinions we are all Brothers and Sisters of the Swans Family. Ultimately when one of us speaks out, no matter the reason, it?s because we are drawn to the desire of seeing our club succeed.

I don?t think my words will make people change how they feel about certain posts. I just hope it will help them think about why we post what we do.

I have rushed in and posted aggressively in the past when I didn?t see eye to eye with someone. I had a wake up call Saturday night after doing just this and will now endeavour to take a breath and think of why it may have been posted before doing so again.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.


Oh and of course as always.

GO SWANS

[dimelb]

Onya Bam-Bam - great post. I agree with you 100% about not bagging players. They need encouragement much more than they need brickbats. Even when they make outrageous mistakes that have me leaping up from my chair, I know they are doing their best in the circumstances, and no-one can do more. They don't need reminding when they've stuffed up.
This is a wonderful forum, which is why I got hooked on it in the first place, and I always feel we support a wonderful club with its own unique traditions (such as not winning a flag in 70 years! a tradition we can change). And I can understand when people get so worked up and p#ssed off when we stuff up as we did last weekend; I bet the players do as well. But it's our club, and it's our blokes, and we'll follow them in good times and bad. And I still think we have a very good team - the future beckons.

[desredandwhite]

Well, it's a fine, fine line.

I don't have any problem with bagging players' performances - if they stuff up, they deserve a bit of a roasting. I always look at it this way: I am a Swans supporter. I don't support the players, they just happen to represent the club I support, if that makes sense.

If a player makes a bad mistake, I will certainly let them know about it (as much as is possible from one's remote position high up in the O'Reilly stand). But fair is fair. If a player does something well, I will applaud him for it. What I can't understand, is a player being bagged just because he is Jude Bolton, or Leo Barry, or whoever.

[chammond]

To bag, or not to bag?
That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler of the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous disposals,
or to take arms against the useless buggers,
and by abusing, end them!

[swansrule100]

i think anyone who takes the time to be on here is a dedicated fan anyway.

i dont see why supporters cant want improvement and suggest ways to improve.

i cant speak for anyone else but say i love the team i bleed red and white and its an awesome team and until the season is officially over i hang on to the thought the year is ours and always will do that!

go swans

[ROK Lobster]

Originally posted by chammond
To bag, or not to bag?
That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler of the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous disposals,
or to take arms against the useless buggers,
and by abusing, end them!

I didn't know Hamlet was getting a game. Just don't let him take the kick ins - there's one bloke who can't make a decision.

I'll put my two bobs worth in here too. I'm only new in here but I reckon its a pretty good board. Living north of Albury but outside Sydney there are only a few who follow the footy and RWO is a great place to listen and say a few things. Wildly different opinions are the heart and soul of football discussion I think. I'm just plucking up the courage to start the 'trade Barry Hall thread' and the 'Paul Kelly had no courage' thread, then the 'Lockett was not a good kick' thread and the 'Dermott Brereton was the best investment the Swans ever made' thread.

What I don't understand, as a newcomer, is why it gets personal sometimes. Play the ball and the occasional legal hip and shoulder, (especially if it is funny) but why do people go for the king hit? What is there to gain? Anyway, all the best everyone - it has been a bad week for some. GO THE SWANS

And by the way I think we should consider trading Barry Hall. He kicks a lot of behinds and we could probably trade him for a second rate ruckman and a washed up CHB...

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by desredandwhite
Well, it's a fine, fine line.

...between pleasure and pain...

I don't have any problem with bagging players' performances - if they stuff up, they deserve a bit of a roasting. I always look at it this way: I am a Swans supporter. I don't support the players, they just happen to represent the club I support, if that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense to me. I support the Sydney Swans and the players happen to represent that club. I have little to no interest in any of the players individually, hence my comments about them are purely in relation to how they are playing football, whether good or bad.

If a player makes a bad mistake, I will certainly let them know about it (as much as is possible from one's remote position high up in the O'Reilly stand). But fair is fair. If a player does something well, I will applaud him for it. What I can't understand, is a player being bagged just because he is Jude Bolton, or Leo Barry, or whoever.

It makes little sense, just as it makes little sense for people to get upset when certain players are criticised.

There's no doubt that certain players get singled out. This results from a number of reasons, mainly expectations.

Certain players are perceived to be the young talents in the club but are not performing as some supporters would like, particularly compared to young players from other clubs. This is especially the case with higher draft picks. This sees them come under far more scrutiny than other players, which is normal to some degree when they are considered to be the elite of the younger talent.

For the ones that are perceived to underperform or take a longer time to mature, their performances often need to be that little bit better as more and more is expected of them, particularly to catch up as it were. In some supporters' eyes they have a longer way to go to reach the stage of being forgiven for poor games.

Perhaps it's a little bit harsh, but there is also possibly an element of players needing to earn respect from supporters before they can be forgiven for bad games.

The same sort of view applies to more experienced players, particularly those traded to the club. There is an expectation that the players will perform to a certain level. If supporters are disappointed by that performance then they have a perfect right to be upset with that player. If a player is usually good and puts in the occasional poor one, that is nearly always acceptable. If not, then he is given a bake. That goes for everything else in life so why not sport.

Perhaps footballers do not go out to try to fail, but in certain cases they perhaps don't go out there hard enough to win. Sometimes their heart isn't in it, they don't try hard enough or they haven't been working hard enough on their skills. Again that is acceptable occasionally, but in a professional job and in most life situations it is not acceptable, and shouldn't be from football players.

I like to point out on this forum (and others) the things I notice in a game that affect the result or are particularly meaningful, such as a very young player doing some good things. When it happens that the team is not playing well and losing quite a bit, it's not surprising that bad things affect the result more. When it is particularly bad it's certainly not surprising that the comments from some supporters is especially aggressive representing their disappointment.

Sure the players may also be disappointed, however they were involved and had their chance and failed. For the poor supporter, he/she cannot do anything about it and the disappointment of losing is mixed with the frustration of not being able to have a meaningful impact on the result, which naturally produces great angst.

At the end of the day, as a supporter, sports are about winning. If you play then it is also about competing, but that doesn't really factor into it when you watch. There is also the element of purely enjoying the sport for the spectacle, however that is also not the same aspect as being a supporter. If a sports team you support doesn't win, then to a large degree it defeats the purpose of supporting a competitive sports team. This is what tends to drive emotions, and is the same for pretty much all sports.

If supporting is about winning, as I believe it is, then commenting on players' performances (nothing personal ever, purely on their football ability) is natural, and if you want to understand exactly what's happening, necessary.

Praising or bagging a player purely because of who he is makes absolutely no sense. All that matters on the football field is how he plays football.

BTW - good post B_B.

[swansrule100]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
[B]...between pleasure and pain...
[B]

Makes perfect sense to me. I support the Sydney Swans and the players happen to represent that club. I have little to no interest in any of the players individually, hence my comments about them are purely in relation to how they are playing football, whether good or bad.


It makes little sense, just as it makes little sense for people to get upset when certain players are criticised.

There's no doubt that certain players get singled out. This results from a number of reasons, mainly expectations.

Certain players are perceived to be the young talents in the club but are not performing as some supporters would like, particularly compared to young players from other clubs. This is especially the case with higher draft picks. This sees them come under far more scrutiny than other players, which is normal to some degree when they are considered to be the elite of the younger talent.

For the ones that are perceived to underperform or take a longer time to mature, their performances often need to be that little bit better as more and more is expected of them, particularly to catch up as it were. In some supporters' eyes they have a longer way to go to reach the stage of being forgiven for poor games.

Perhaps it's a little bit harsh, but there is also possibly an element of players needing to earn respect from supporters before they can be forgiven for bad games.

The same sort of view applies to more experienced players, particularly those traded to the club. There is an expectation that the players will perform to a certain level. If supporters are disappointed by that performance then they have a perfect right to be upset with that player. If a player is usually good and puts in the occasional poor one, that is nearly always acceptable. If not, then he is given a bake. That goes for everything else in life so why not sport.

Perhaps footballers do not go out to try to fail, but in certain cases they perhaps don't go out there hard enough to win. Sometimes their heart isn't in it, they don't try hard enough or they haven't been working hard enough on their skills. Again that is acceptable occasionally, but in a professional job and in most life situations it is not acceptable, and shouldn't be from football players.

I like to point out on this forum (and others) the things I notice in a game that affect the result or are particularly meaningful, such as a very young player doing some good things. When it happens that the team is not playing well and losing quite a bit, it's not surprising that bad things affect the result more. When it is particularly bad it's certainly not surprising that the comments from some supporters is especially aggressive representing their disappointment.

Sure the players may also be disappointed, however they were involved and had their chance and failed. For the poor supporter, he/she cannot do anything about it and the disappointment of losing is mixed with the frustration of not being able to have a meaningful impact on the result, which naturally produces great angst.

At the end of the day, as a supporter, sports are about winning. If you play then it is also about competing, but that doesn't really factor into it when you watch. There is also the element of purely enjoying the sport for the spectacle, however that is also not the same aspect as being a supporter. If a sports team you support doesn't win, then to a large degree it defeats the purpose of supporting a competitive sports team. This is what tends to drive emotions, and is the same for pretty much all sports.

If supporting is about winning, as I believe it is, then commenting on players' performances (nothing personal ever, purely on their football ability) is natural, and if you want to understand exactly what's happening, necessary.

Praising or bagging a player purely because of who he is makes absolutely no sense. All that matters on the football field is how he plays football.

BTW - good post B_B.

spot on......

i mean if an accountant stuffs up heaps his boss will get rid of him.. i guess he doesnt have people on a forum writing about his mistake (pretty boring forum) but he still has to face the consequences

[Nolie]

Have just joined the RWO and it is a great read. I am impressed by the deep level of thinking and articulation by the posters - especially most of it coming from what I refer to as a "Non AFL" State.

[BAM_BAM]

Originally posted by swansrule100
spot on......

i mean if an accountant stuffs up heaps his boss will get rid of him.. i guess he doesnt have people on a forum writing about his mistake (pretty boring forum) but he still has to face the consequences

this was one things I mentioned in my original draft but cut it out as my post. It was long enough. Working in payroll I'd hate to have a forum about my stuff up's. Although I try not to make them sometimes it happens and when it comes to someone's pay it really really matters.

we're in sinc on this one swansrule100

and thanks Nick.

[ScottH]

It is frustrating to watch some players have crap games, some more than others, but the final bagging will ultimatley come from Roos. If he feels the players have not advanced to a stage that he considers where they should be they will not be at the club when there contracts expire. Also the players can go from hero to villian to hero in a space of a week or a qtr or a centre square bounce. Such as B1's goal to win the game early this year from a buchanon handpass, (against Hawks(?)).

I have players I think are not up to scratch as others here do, but they have made the AFL 1st grade, we haven't!!! so it is easy to criticise from the comfort of our seats in the stand. And if all players were stars we would be breaching the salary cap to keep them.

PS. was that an attempt to get the worlds longest post Bam_Bam????

[CureTheSane]

Pretty much agree with BAM BAM's first post.

In the wash up, you get to know people.

If someone comes out is bagging players, or the club or whatever, then that's fine.
If they are doing it constantly, I simply stop reading their posts.

That's a personal thing for me.
I don't watch news or read newspapers because the news is mostly depressing and bad.
Same here. If it's all negative, then I just hit that little X up the top.

Threads like "we are ****ing crap" and the like are just 'crying' threads to me.

Some people just can't understand that there are 16 clubs and they all play each other every week.
We aren't going to win every game, and there will be dissappointments.

Funny how I remember probably 95% of people here endorsing Roos and his long term plan.
Everyone knew we needed a change of culture with draft picks etc.
Now that we have what we wanted, it's still not good enough for many people.

[swansrule100]

Originally posted by BAM_BAM
this was one things I mentioned in my original draft but cut it out as my post. It was long enough. Working in payroll I'd hate to have a forum about my stuff up's. Although I try not to make them sometimes it happens and when it comes to someone's pay it really really matters.

we're in sinc on this one swansrule100

and thanks Nick.

and we arent normally in sinc? :P

i would be happy to start a payroll forum if you like? :P

but yeh they have enourmous pressure...

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by CureTheSane
Threads like "we are ****ing crap" and the like are just 'crying' threads to me.

Some people just can't understand that there are 16 clubs and they all play each other every week.
We aren't going to win every game, and there will be dissappointments.

Threads like that are usually in the immediate aftermath of an absolute shocker. Hardly surprising and nothing to do with whether we can win every week or not.

[cruiser]

Originally posted by Nolie
.... I am impressed by the deep level of thinking and articulation by the posters - especially most of it coming from what I refer to as a "Non AFL" State.

Sydney is a city full of people from somewhere else. I suspect that a lot of Sydney's supporters are originally from the southern states and therefore also grew up on Aussie Rules (I'm originally from Adelaide myself). It annoys the hell out of me when I hear people question the football knowledge, understanding and passion of Swans supporters. If they could hear my friends and I talking about it, they wouldn't be so dismissive.