WHats wrong with him?

[Charlie]

Speaking of the Saints... what do you reckon of the job they're doing incubating our next full-forward?

That blonde-haired kid looks a chance.

[sharp9]

McVeigh isn't any better than Bolton or Fosdike IMO

That's very loyal of you but you have to be joking.

Hard, skilful, quick thinking, fast. Did I leave anything out?
As for Hayes, he captained the Saints the other day, didn't he?

Not to mention (again) a couple of locals we didn't draft by the names of Crawford and Hird!

[Cheer Cheer]

Sharp9 red is right. Mark Mcveigh is a dud!
He is cannot be classified skillfull, he is not fast - just normal AFL standard, same with hardness - more regarded as a soft pretty boy, and again his footy brain is nothing out of the ordinary.
Fosdike is a notch higher than mcviegh, and bolton is around the mark, maybe a tad lower.

Hayes, however stands above all mentioned.

[shearer]

Bolton is a dud...had the word potential splashed on him since the draft in 1998.

Plays like a league player would , head down, hard at the ball but when he gets it can go anywhere.

His skill level hasnt improved to AFL midfield standard.

Folks, i want a premiership and our current midfield is just not up to the mark of the top 6 in the league.Trying to compare players like Bolton,Fosdike,Matthews & Kirk to the lions or Crows midfield is like trying to compare Nicole Provis with Steffi Graf.

[NMWBloods]

Re: i think jude is a good player

Originally posted by jude_adams_babe
i think jude is a good player and he can only get better

and

Originally posted by warfes_babe
jude is a good young player that will get better.

Why is he a good player? Why can he only get better?

What are the answers...? _babes...?

[chammond]

The '98 draft is less bad judgement than incredibly bad luck.

Can't agree with that Red.

I agree that the draft is normally a lottery, with many clubs faring badly in the long run. With hindsight, most clubs end up looking stupid, when really it's just bad luck.

But in 1998, the Swans had Hayes and McVeigh fed to them on a plate. There was much media speculation that Sydney would pick up the 'local' boys, and former Swan Steve Wright would have given them the inside running as coach of the U18 side.

Instead, they chose to ignore them both, and take a punt on a supposed 'smoky' in Fitzgerald, plus Fosdike and Bolton. Luck had nothing to do with this decision - Hayes and McVeigh didn't get under anyone's guard - it was purely bad judgement.

This isn't a shot at Barham, incidentally. I think he's done a great job every year - except 1998.

[Red]

Originally posted by chammond
But in 1998, the Swans had Hayes and McVeigh fed to them on a plate. There was much media speculation that Sydney would pick up the 'local' boys, and former Swan Steve Wright would have given them the inside running as coach of the U18 side.

Instead, they chose to ignore them both, and take a punt on a supposed 'smoky' in Fitzgerald, plus Fosdike and Bolton. Luck had nothing to do with this decision - Hayes and McVeigh didn't get under anyone's guard - it was purely bad judgement.

I've always thought it'd be better to draft a Sydney/NSW boy with potential for obvious reasons -- no 'go-home' factor and the great PR. It's annoying to see them bob up at other clubs, especially when we had zone selections which we never seemed to use!

Happily the Club finally seems to be coming to this conclusion, as evidenced by the drafting of McVeigh younger ahead of more fancied inter-state prospects. I wonder how much Ireland has to do with this.

But if even one of James or Fitzgerald (who btw was very highly rated and wanted by Blight) was fit, you'd have to say that '98 was a success. That'd be one decent KP position player, and two good midfielders, that didn't cost us much in the way of picks or players. The fact that none of them are from NSW is a little irrelevant really.

Besides, who's to say that Hayes/M. McVeigh won't be Swans soon anyway? The great thing about the growing number of quality AFL players from NSW is that the go-home factor is starting to work in our favour. Have you noticed how none of the Adelaide boys seem that keen to return? Imagine how easy it'll be to get a Sydney boy back from there!

[Mike_B]

Or maybe its just the fact hey can get 15% more money in sydney?

[Steve]

Originally posted by chammond
The Swans traded heavily to get quality draft picks

Might have appeared that way on the surface, but not really.

The '98 draft was the weakest of recent times. Really we only gave up O'Farrell, Mooney, Licuria (who'd played 10 games at the time) and Orchard to get 3 top-8 picks.

Does anyone really think Hawthorn, Geelong and Collingwood would have given up those picks had there been gun youngsters on offer?

Getting Fosdike and Bolton for O'Farrell and Mooney has turned out to be decent value, and hopefully it turns out to be excellent value.

Really we had no choice but to draft Fitzgerald - Lockett was about to start his final year, and it was obvious at the time that the likes of Carey, O'Connor, Feast and Sangster were not going to be around for long.

On the McVeigh/Hayes thing, how's the club going to win? Draft them on the basis of being locals and be criticised for not basing the decision on ability alone, or draft others and be criticised for passing up a great PR opportunity.

Obviously everyone can be an expert analysing drafts that occured 5 years ago.

[chammond]

Obviously everyone can be an expert analysing drafts that occured 5 years ago.

You've lost me there, Steve. Are you saying we shouldn't analyse them?

Anyhow, at the time, the Swans traded their first choice centre-half forward, a very promising young ruckman, and a promising midfielder (Orchard was only traded because his girlfriend insisted). But on the other hand, they all wanted to leave Sydney anyway.

Taking Fitzgerald was always a big risk, and the Swans were well aware of that at the time - they gambled and lost. Bolton and Fosdike might represent value, but my query is whether they were the best value? The fact is, we could easily have had any three of Hayes, McVeigh, Bolton and Fosdike - no luck, no hindsight, no flukes required, just a better drafting performance.

On the McVeigh/Hayes thing, how's the club going to win? Draft them on the basis of being locals and be criticised for not basing the decision on ability alone, or draft others and be criticised for passing up a great PR opportunity.

Of course it's difficult. But if they are local boys and among the best on offer . . .

Besides, who's to say that Hayes/M. McVeigh won't be Swans soon anyway?

Hey Red, do you have some inside info? It would certainly make our future brighter.

BTW, it was interesting to read that Steve Wright thought that Nick Davis was far and away the most talented of the U18 team that Hayes captained!

[Steve]

Originally posted by chammond
You've lost me there, Steve. Are you saying we shouldn't analyse them?

No. Just that 5 years down the track it's easy to be right and criticise the decisions of those who didnt have such a luxury.

And just for the record I have no ambition to impinge on the rights of anyone to analyse (and then criticise if they see fit) past decisions made.

However IMO this example of it is unfair - that is all.

The perception has been (amongst supporters) that Sydney traded extremely aggressively in 1998, and as such should have recruited 3 Michael Voss's as a result.

The truth was that it was a weak draft that other clubs were happy to swap early picks for average established players, as they were confident it wouldn't come back to haunt them.

Sydney were just at the point where they desperately needed some fresh blood, yet were still in a position to let those draftees take a few years to settle in.

I can see that argument in response to that would be: "well why did they trade for early picks in that dud draft year - they should have done it in a stronger draft".

But the reality (as opposed to supporters' perception) of that is that Sydney would have had to give up much more than Mooney, O'Farrell, Orchard etc to get high picks in a strong draft.

Still, Sydney knew that Mooney and O'Farrell's futures were doubtful - injuries that they had in Sydney led to them only playing 32 and 13 games respectively after leaving. 1997 was Orchard's one good season, where he was mainly used in a back-pocket.

Fitzgerald was not a smokey prior to the draft - he was widely tipped to be chosen at No.3 before anyone knew who would actually have that selection.

The choice at the time was:

Bolton vs Carr (inside midfielders)

Fosdike vs Hayes vs McVeigh vs Ramanauskas vs M.Stevens (outside midfielders)

Sydney needed one of each and the above is what the decision would have come down to.

Carr was taken at No.7, so it was a simple choice to take Jude at No.8

Given that they were going to take a tall with one of the first 2 picks (Fitzgerald), which wasn't an unreasonable decision, they had to choose 1 of the others.

They chose Fosdike, it may or may not end up being assessed as the best decision when they all finish their careers, but I'm still condident that we haven't seen the best of Fosdike.

But anyone who just thinks we $%&#@* up at the 1998 draft is more than entitled to think so - I just think it is a little more complicated than that.

[Red]

Originally posted by chammond
Hey Red, do you have some inside info? It would certainly make our future brighter.

Nope -- just hoping for the best.

But it worked with Davis, and it nearly worked with Blumfield (back when he was still good). We've already lured a Saint that they were pretty keen to keep. And if they continue to struggle over the next few years (now how likely is that?), then we're a very good chance to entice Lenny back home. That's all I'm saying.

BTW Steve, you've either got one awesome memory or you've been keeping some very detailed notes over the years.

[Newbie]

I believe the our drafting is not that bad. Given the picks we have, Barham has actually done a decent job. All picks seem to have something to offer to the club (exception of Buchanan who I am not a fan of). The only problem is "the list of picks" Barham got to play with, which is not his entire fault.

Our player development probably is the area with something to desire. Hope that will improve with the removal of Eade.

[chammond]

Just that 5 years down the track it's easy to be right and criticise the decisions of those who didnt have such a luxury.

Bugger me, Steve, this seems to be getting a bit of a habit.

Firstly, Fitzgerald was a smokey in terms of exposed form - even the Crows, who were shouting his name from the hill-tops, knew that he represented a significant risk. He was really little more than a very promising country footballer.

And I don't remember him being recruited as a 'tall', but rather as a goalkicker. Otherwise why did the Swans pick O'Connor and Feast after they'd picked Fitzgerald? And they already had two ruckmen in the squad.

Anyhow, that's neither here nor there.

I've said plenty of times in other forums (fora?) that playing "if only" when looking back on previous drafts is a fruitless exercise, and Barham (or whoever makes the recruiting decisions) has done at least as good a job as any other club recruiter over the long term.

But my point is that the Swans did 'have the luxury' at the time. The form of Hayes and McVeigh was totally exposed. And they fitted the profile of outside/inside midfielders that you describe - at that time, McVeigh's best form was on the wing, and Hayes played mostly as a ruck-rover in the U18s. So the Swans must have made a calculated and knowledgeable decision (as most professionals do everyday) to ignore the local boys and forego the PR and motivation opportunities.

And IMO that was more than bad luck; that was a stuff up.

[Steve]

Originally posted by chammond
Bugger me, Steve, this seems to be getting a bit of a habit.

For both of us seemingly.

The form of Hayes and McVeigh was so exposed that Port Adelaide and Carlton chose Michael Stevens (and also Josh Carr) and Murray Vance ahead of both of them.

Personally I don't see how McVeigh and Hayes were 'totally exposed', but Bolton and Fosdike weren't. We're not talking about the amount of info on them that trickled through to supporters watching from a distance, we're talking about what full-time recruiters knew of them.

Lenny Hayes was the 8th midfielder taken at the 1998 draft - the queries of the time about his pace and durability were made by others, and not just Barham. He's worked his way up that pecking order since, and good luck to him, but at the time everyone else also rated him behind the others.

All of this is based on the assumption that McVeigh and Hayes will finish their careers ahead of Fosdike and Bolton. No matter how much anyone thinks they are right about that assumption now, it still remains just that - an assumption, not fact.

As I mentioned before Cliff, you think you are right just as much as I think I'm right - are you now telling me you're right about thinking you're right and I'm wrong about thinking I'm right?