Potential Comp Re-structures for 2009 and beyond

[Rafters]

The structure works well in local club cricket, soccer, tough football ... so no reason why it couldn't work in Sydney AFL. Give it a few years & it would sort itself out naturally. It is worth a try. The Premier League teams - that want to play seriously - will be the same strength but it will even out alot of the lower grades.

It is not important that your club has to have all sides play at the one location each week ... one of the joys of cricket is going back to the club & finding out the scores of how the other sides went. The reality is that most 2s players leave by halftime of ones anyway & the ones hardly ever watch the first half of the 2s.

So what if teams come last & lose by millions ... every season someone must come last regardless of whether you have 5 teams in the comp or 16.

Have a fifth & sixth grade to replace the under 18s & help keep the old boys (aka Masters) in the game (think of the 45yo playing cricket with upcoming 16yo). Don't worry about the old boys trying to belt the young fellas at that level because it wouldn't happen as they would be too slow to catch them & a great introduction into senior footy for the young fellas. Imagine the joy of a father being able to play a game with his son.

The ideal scenario is for each club to have 4 teams ... that way they can be guaranteed 2 games per week for every home game ... whether it be 1s & 4s or 2s & 3s. The interest has to be big enough in Sydney footy to be able to build clubs to these numbers if it wants to compete on the same level with other footy codes. If a club doesn't have 4 teams then have clubs share grounds so that there are 2 matches played there every week.

Also there is no reason why AFL is not played every weekend on dedicated grounds such as Monarch, Gipps, etc ... grounds are currently only partly utilised when you think that there are only played on 1 day every two weekends (ie 25%). That needs to change.

The structure also allows for new sides to be created ... slot them into the lower grades & let them work their way up. If they fold the following year or can get more numbers for a 2nd team then let them do so. Let the boys from the local golf club put a side in one year ... who cares if they are crap.

The key is getting people to participate in footy each week. if the league can supplement some of the costs of the competition (such as balls, umpires, waiving registration costs) then by reducing these entry barriers will make it easier for more teams to compete.

[Offal]

Long Night..

Faarken Hell.....I am going to the league discussion on this proposal on Monday night.

Should I take my sleeping bag? It'll be a long night.

I predict it will just end up being a Premier Div clubs vs First Div clubs debate. All of Prem won't want it and all of First Div will want it. That's how it has been when this concept has been floated in the past.

[Pekay]

Well put Rafters, spoken by someone who has a true understanding of Sydney Footy, having participated in both SFL and SFA recently and many years ago...This has to happen, regardless of what the Premier Division clubs say about it..it doesn't affect them half as much as it does the lower grades.
As for Offal, bring an esky brother, me and a few boys are heading down to strongly voice our opinions...We all have a voice, we must be heard and listened to.

[ash]

Fantasy Land - who makes up the committee?

The current structure is fine. More relevance placed on junior team affiliation would be time better spent.
Players who want to play higher level will always go to Premier Division and naturally filter themselves down the divisions. Some of you blokes live in another planet.


Quotes riduculous:

"ressies dont hang around" (no ressies seniors would only have half the crowd)

"Same as grade cricket" (you are referring to park cricket- not grade. Seriously do u think a first grader cares about a 4th grade old fella in park cricket?)

"Play on a few grounds"- like to be the home team.

etc.....

[The Duck]

Firstly let me say I cannot believe what I have read on this forum regarding the restructuring of the Sydney AFL. If the future of the competition is relying on what is said at the forum on Monday night we are heading for a disaster not to far down the track. I don?t usually agree with what Ash posts but he is 100% right regarding the premier league. It is the top competition and it, nor should its reserves not be touched at all. I know your heart is in the right place Pekay but your total lack of knowledge regarding football is alarming. You have limited or no understanding of how a football competition should work. It is almost laughable that people agree with you regarding taking some premier league clubs reserves and putting them in a different division. How the hell can you foster club spirit when your reserves are not even playing at the same ground? What do you say to a sponsor who wants to come down for the day and watch a club that he has invested a sizable amount of money into? ?Yeah the two?s are playing 45 mins away if you want to watch them but otherwise hang around and watch our 1s!?. I cannot believe how stupid this proposal is. If the Sydney AFL is fair dinkum they should restructure the whole of Divisions 1 and 2 and leave the premier league out of it. This idea has the potential to rip the heart out of our competition and set it back decades!

[humphrey bear]

Firstly let me say I cannot believe what I have read on this forum regarding the restructuring of the Sydney AFL. If the future of the competition is relying on what is said at the forum on Monday night we are heading for a disaster not to far down the track. I don?t usually agree with what Ash posts but he is 100% right regarding the premier league. It is the top competition and it, nor should its reserves not be touched at all. I know your heart is in the right place Pekay but your total lack of knowledge regarding football is alarming. You have limited or no understanding of how a football competition should work. It is almost laughable that people agree with you regarding taking some premier league clubs reserves and putting them in a different division. How the hell can you foster club spirit when your reserves are not even playing at the same ground? What do you say to a sponsor who wants to come down for the day and watch a club that he has invested a sizable amount of money into? ?Yeah the two?s are playing 45 mins away if you want to watch them but otherwise hang around and watch our 1s!?. I cannot believe how stupid this proposal is. If the Sydney AFL is fair dinkum they should restructure the whole of Divisions 1 and 2 and leave the premier league out of it. This idea has the potential to rip the heart out of our competition and set it back decades!

Yep

The other fatal flaw is that the Divisions are split by the quality of the individual teams as they are right now.

In 3 years when when some teams improve and other go backwards are you going to restructure again to equalise things.

This proposal is short term thinking at its worst

[The Duck]

Humphrey has brought up yet another flaw in this proposal. What happens the year after if ECE, Easts, Penno or Sydney Uni's two drop of the pace. Do we have to have a round robin (like under 10's) every year to decide who should play in what division? It's about tome the clowns under big top bit the bullet and made some hard decisions instead of band aid sollutions. The biggest decision (if they have the guts) is to reduce the sides in the lower divisions and strengthen up the clubs. Instead of having 25-30 tin pot clubs with limited financial or playing depth, cut it back to 15 that have Seniors, Reserves and Under 18s. Then when the lower division clubs are able to, (financial and on field success wise), they can be in a position to challenge to be promoted to premier league. If we pander to the weak, the strong will become weaker and this competition will become sub standard really quickly!!

[mountainsofpain]

The current structure is fine. More relevance placed on junior team affiliation would be time better spent.
Players who want to play higher level will always go to Premier Division and naturally filter themselves down the divisions. Some of you blokes live in another planet.


Quotes riduculous:

"ressies dont hang around" (no ressies seniors would only have half the crowd)

"Same as grade cricket" (you are referring to park cricket- not grade. Seriously do u think a first grader cares about a 4th grade old fella in park cricket?)

"Play on a few grounds"- like to be the home team.

etc.....

And the bolded part of your statement is equally as ridiculous, with all due respect - certainly in relation to the First Division.

Senior football in the outer west of Sydney has struggled for years - ie Nor-West Jets, Penrith, Camden and in recent years S-W Sydney and even Parramatta in 2006. If it was only one club you could point the finger at the club. But that is not the case.

The problem is that the playing resources - both in terms of talent and depth - do not exist in the west to anywhere near the levels they do in the city, North Shore, Shire and Hills areas.

So you have clubs drawing from extremely limited resources, up against clubs with the opportunity to do the exact opposite. And the results reflect that perfectly. If you doubt what I say, go and have a look at the First Div results this year when one of the outer western sides plays a UTS, or a Manly.

As it stands - and how it has stood for years - is that the First Division comp in particular is a lop-sided joke. It is almost guaranteed that teams like UTS and Manly (and in the past UNSW, Sydney Uni, etc) will turn up and make the finals each year. And that the premier will come from one of those.

Likewise, it is guaranteed that the outer western clubs will turn up and simply make up the numbers - if they are lucky one may make the finals so they can get duly knocked out almost immediately. And even if one of their First Grade side makes the finals, their Reserve Grade sides don`t because they don`t have the depth.

Even Parramatta - the strongest Western Sydney club - (which is not in the same boat as its more Western neighbours because of its geographical proximity to the Hills area in particular), has only made one senior grade grand final since 1994 (when the then 2nd and 1st Divs combined).

The problems outlined above are directly aligned with the structure of the competition , which is why things need to be fixed. You simply cannot expect clubs to turn up year after year into a competition which is so hopelessly inequitable that they have zero chance of winning a flag.

As much as the clubs have a responsibility to run their affairs as well as possible, so does the AFL in providing something resembling an even playing field in terms of competition structure. It should alarm them considerably that their great `project` area (ie Western Sydney) struggles so much in terms of Senior Football. And if they want the game to grow out there at that level they have to do something about it. Changing the competition structure so that clubs drawing from something resembling similar player bases are competing against each other is a logical way of going about it.

However, if the AFL (NSW/ACT) want the seemingly endless stream of people walking away from the senior game in the outer west to continue, well hey - the current arrangement is working perfectly!

I know people involved in the senior game in the outer west. It is almost impossible to develop the game out there when the clubs are continually coming up against considerably stronger clubs week in, week out. You simply cannot keep players, administrators or club spirit for any extended period of time.

Penrith has forfeited games this year and last. Parra forfeited them in 2006. S-W did likewise before they went to 2nd Div. Camden dropped one also this year. Nor-West Jets would have forfeited any where up to 30 or 40 games from the mid 90s to the early 00s. This is because these clubs battle to attract and retain players, because at the end of the day there is little fun in going out and getting your arse kicked by 30 goals. (And, might I add, it does little for the side doing the kicking either, apart from artificially inflating goalkicking records).

So to say the competition structure as it is should be kept - at least in terms of the First Division - simply does not fly. If anyone tries to point the finger solely at the clubs concerned, that is simply ignorant. I have no doubt that the clubs out there do as much work as any other senior club in trying to grow and improve. But when you are starting so far behind the better off clubs in terms of playing resources, it must make life extremely difficult.

[shearer]

Duck, Ash & Humphrey have hit the nail on the head. This is my last year of having anything official to do with St George & footy but by the sounds of this proposal if i want to go up to Olds and catch up with some of the boys i have coached and watch the twos and seniors then i will not be able to.

We have had the ridiculous situation a few times of having our 18's at Riverview while the senior teams have been in Wollongong. Our club is limited in its resources as it is, but this made it extremely difficult. There has been plenty of games this year where we have kids play full games of 18's and then backed up and sat on the bench for firsts or ressies, they feel like part of the club and it fosters good harmony.


Footy in this city goes in cycles, when i coached the 18's in 2004 C/Town 18's were dreadful, now they are near the top. Balmain as much as they are struggling now, went back to back 10 years ago.

It is honestly the stupidest idea i have heard in the 20 years ive been playing footy.

[humphrey bear]

Mountain

What you are saying is correct but how will the proposed new structure improve the problems you have outlined for clubs in the west?

Short term that may get a few easier games by not having to play Manly and the other stronger clubs but long term this proposal wont develop the game of the clubs in trouble.

In 3 years time we will be exactly where we are now some strong teams and some easybeats. Under this new structure the blokes who have left the 2nd Division clubs to go to the premier clubs will still leave.

As I said before it is all short term thinking.

[mountainsofpain]

Well put Rafters, spoken by someone who has a true understanding of Sydney Footy, having participated in both SFL and SFA recently and many years ago...This has to happen, regardless of what the Premier Division clubs say about it..it doesn't affect them half as much as it does the lower grades.
As for Offal, bring an esky brother, me and a few boys are heading down to strongly voice our opinions...We all have a voice, we must be heard and listened to.

And therein lies the potential problem.

I have always viewed football as important at all levels. So growing the senior game and having it healthy - at all levels - is vital.

The game below the Premier Division simply does not matter to a lot of people in Sydney. I have witnessed it first hand, also seeing it at League level, and the attitude is clearly still alive and well judging from some of what I have seen posted here.

So to many, as long as the top division is going reasonably well, to hell with the rest it would appear.

To be honest, Premier Division may not need to be touched in any capacity as part of this (although Campbelltown`s ongoing lack of senior depth must be real concern). But certainly the League needs to look at the divisions below that in terms of restructure, if not divisionally (which I don`t particularly like either because of the issue of splitting sides) well then maybe split the comps geographically (which has happened to some degree in the past).

So, maybe this is more a discussion for those who have an interest in the game at all levels, just not the Premier Division.

[shearer]

I will be honest and say i couldnt give two hoots about the game below premier division BUT i still cannot see the benefit at ANY level of having a team play at 3 different grounds on the one day.

[mountainsofpain]

Mountain

What you are saying is correct but how will the proposed new structure improve the problems you have outlined for clubs in the west?

Short term that may get a few easier games by not having to play Manly and the other stronger clubs but long term this proposal wont develop the game of the clubs in trouble.

In 3 years time we will be exactly where we are now some strong teams and some easybeats. Under this new structure the blokes who have left the 2nd Division clubs to go to the premier clubs will still leave.

As I said before it is all short term thinking.

There is no perfect answer. But it is an issue which needs to be addressed. As can be seen from my subsequent post, the problem with this is that it is going to be discussed on a needs basis.

In other words, those with a Premier Division alignment probably won`t see an issue. They are doing okay, so what is the problem? Ditto for those from say a UTS and a Manly, who must enjoy having a virtual week off each time they play Nor-West, or Penrith, or Camden.

On the other side, I can fully understand clubs from the outer west wanting a change. They are adversely affected by the structure as it currently stands (and has stood for years) and are being directly hampered in their efforts to grow their clubs (and the game in general) because of it.

So probably nothing will come out of it. Those who are travelling nicely will have their say and win out - because they are clearly in the majority. But structurally, Sydney football (certainly below Premier Div level) is grossly inequitable and needs to be fixed.

If nothing does change, eventually clubs in the west will fall over in my view (which must have been on the cards with several clubs already I would imagine) because I would think they would only want to beat their heads up against a brick wall for so long.

[mountainsofpain]

I will be honest and say i couldnt give two hoots about the game below premier division BUT i still cannot see the benefit at ANY level of having a team play at 3 different grounds on the one day.

I am strongly against that as well, I am not for one second advocating separation of sides.

[Pekay]

I appreciate the reply Duck, but to say my football knowledge is limited is a bit harsh, as all i am doing is relaying and analysing what has been emailed to me from head office. If you have such a great knowledge of the game, surely there is a spot for you down at the league to work your magic. Perhaps you're right, the Premier Divisions Seniors and Reserves need not be touched, all i have done is put together what i think would be a realistic proposal for how footy should be structured. We all have opinions my friend, and they are like ar seholes- all different, and divided. I'm not sure what club you come from, probably a moderately successful one given your opposition to this restructure. Given your opinions, i assume you'll be voicing them at this forum to be held?
Mountains has it right, this isn't just for Premier League, its for all divisions of Sydney Footy. Footy would be no chop in ten years if there is nothing but the same 20-30 goal hidings being dished out week in week out.
I've voicedmy opinion, you have yours, no need to bring my 'limited knowledge' of football in to question, you dont even know me to draw that judgement. This isnt a slanging match.