Potential Comp Re-structures for 2009 and beyond

[Pace To Burn]

[QUOTE=mountainsofpain;406316] To be honest, Premier Division may not need to be touched in any capacity as part of this (although Campbelltown`s ongoing lack of senior depth must be real concern).

Just to clarify, where does our ongoing lack of senior depth come from. Yes we have lost players this season and have struggled for numbers in the ressies,mainly due to some players leaving close to the start of the season which left it too late to recruit as well as some going back to camden when they returned to sydney footy, but that will improve when our u/18s come up at the end of the year and with some recruiting in the off season. Last year we made the finals in seniors and only just missed in the ressies.Dont be too concerned for us we will be fine.

[I_Heart_Kefalas]

I don't have too much time to read through the annuls of intellect that are present on this forum, but does anybody else find it a tad funny and possibly embarrassing that a city of approx 4.3 million people, and a hugely popular AFL team can only muster up the third strongest comp in the entire NSW/ACT (approx 7.1 million approx combined pop) ?

The first and second strongest comps are obviously the O&M and the ACTAFL and would both be both coming from an approx pop size of 300-400k each for their respective regional areas...

So despite having the potential of almost 60% of the combined NSW & ACT state's population, we can only muster up the third strongest competition, behind two seperate regional areas who have incredibly strong comps respectively generated from only around 4-5% of the entire NSW & ACT population.

Excuse the sums, I am sure there are plenty of experts who can rally off ABS stats to argue the figures used, but I think everybody can get a clear view on the scale we are talking about of how much of an opportunity we are missing.

I think the Duck's point of serving the weak is extremely apt, and for me a clear result of this would be the number of clubs and grades we have spread throughout Sydney currently across multiple competitions.

I understand that Football clubs/leagues are often driven greatly on emotion and rarely on logic, I see this as being the direct cause of such a spread of comps, clubs and mini-empires (The "bugger this, let's go make our own" mentality).

I understand that footy clubs also serves more purposes to people than just an avenue to be a premier player, or a part, of a 'premier' club, hence the need for lower levels/grades, but I think the league needs to rather dramatically cull & align this current scattergun approach of clubs throughout Sydney and throughout competitions and dismantle a few of these mini-empires.

I'd definitely agree with Ash's earlier comments regarding the need for feeder clubs, and I'd also argue the need for each club to prove their long-term viability to the league. Basically step in, shape up, or ship out.

Every SINGLE club needs to have a clearly definied premier division club.

We really need a clear and linear alignment of every club deemed viable in Sydney with a pathway for the cream to rise to the top and be recognised appropriately. Less is best and it's called 'premier' for a reason. Auskick is fun for kids, let's get serious for adults.

[BeeEmmAre]

I think the reason we're needing to have this discussion is clearly stated by a large majority of posters on this thread.
The people involved in high positions at Premier League clubs that openly say they couldn't give a @@@@ about the lower competitions really need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that without one you eventually won't have the other.
Shearer, who is one of your most loyal servants at the Crows? I'd say Rod Craig - and where does he come from. Isn't he a Shark? Would you have such a great player and servant if this so-called insignificant club down the road didn't produce him?
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, not just at St George, but certainly at Balmain (until they went to Macquarie Uni this year anyway), while a club like UNSWES will always be strong because as a university they will always have quality players dropping in their lap out of thin air.
We don't have that luxury or ability.
The opinions that all you Premier League people have been displaying on here are exactly the opinions being held by the Sydney AFL at least since I've been in Sydney and the reason the small (especially Western) clubs are struggling to be competitive.
IHK mentioned the O&M - Garry Burkinshaw is from the Hume league, which is a feeder competition to that league, and he has already performed a resurrection job in the Black Diamond (until two months ago they were State Champions).
I believe he knows what he is doing and I'd put my faith in him to turn things around any day. Ash and Shearer, as key people at your clubs, have you read the release that came out this week? The others may not have, but most of your arguments and concerns have been covered.

To all of you, please think outside the square on this and not just what benefits your own club.
It is most likely that Premier League won't be affected anyway - nor does it need to be.

[shearer]

BMR, with regard to Rod Craig. Rod is from North Wagga and i believe(i could well be wrong here) only played a season or two at Southern Sharks, not that i am potting them.

We have been lucky in that the Sharks have sent us some of there talented players such as Rod, Peter Smith, Sean Fitzpatrick and recently Cameron Roe. In turn we have encouraged guys who arent getting a game with us to head down the road and many have had good careers with the Sharks.

And no i havent read or seen the document.

[radar oreilly]

If the proposal put forward by the powers???? that be is accepted it will be the death knell of penrith, nor west and camden at the least. It certainly looks like the league want the strong to get stronger and the weak to p>ss off. So much for giving blokes the chance to play footy. It seems we don't want footy clubs unless they can play premier league and if not bad luck. You can maybe go play soccer instead.

[DLH]

I think the reason we're needing to have this discussion is clearly stated by a large majority of posters on this thread.
The people involved in high positions at Premier League clubs that openly say they couldn't give a @@@@ about the lower competitions really need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that without one you eventually won't have the other.
Shearer, who is one of your most loyal servants at the Crows? I'd say Rod Craig - and where does he come from. Isn't he a Shark? Would you have such a great player and servant if this so-called insignificant club down the road didn't produce him?

It's a fair point BMR, there are a couple of pretty handy guys running around at the minute by the names of Alistair Richardson and Mark Egan who are both Penrith products.

I can understand people having their parochial views on this issue depending on where they're coming at it from, from my perspective I can only agree with what MOP has had to say here. You can only beat your head against a brick wall for so long. There just aren't the playing and admin resources for footy in the west, and if you're getting pounded into submission every week, the people that do put their hands up year after year eventually give up.

We'll get to the point in the not to distant future where there'll be no senior football played west of the geographic centre of Sydney bar an AFL club in 2012 if we're not careful. Clearly there are plenty of people that aren't particularly concerned by that prospect which is pretty disappointing.

[radar oreilly]

Seriously how can sydney footy support 5 divisions of 10 teams each. half the clubs will fold. What a load of crock. I have not heard anything so riduculous since the afl decided to put a 2nd side in sydney

[humphrey bear]

I .
The people involved in high positions at Premier League clubs that openly say they couldn't give a @@@@ about the lower competitions really need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that without one you eventually won't have the other.

To all of you, please think outside the square on this and not just what benefits your own club.
It is most likely that Premier League won't be affected anyway - nor does it need to be.

Your whole post is drivel but the bit of highlighted is the most nonsensical. No one from the Premier clubs have said they dont give @@@@ about Division 1.

Please explain to me how the proposed restructure helps the lower clubs other than in the short term as they get to play easier opposition.

Where or what is the long term benefits for any of the divisions , the clubs or the AFL? How will it make the Western clubs particularly stronger, more sustainable or improve the level of footy?

Lastly the Premier league will be effected negatively if all 3 grades dont play at the same ground on the same day.

[ash]

Yes concerns may have been aired.
However to show selfimportance some people change for change sake. Commonsense does not always thrive.

Having being involved with this league for 25 years and probably as well travelled as anyone, the playing standard has dropped but would say the offfield areas have improved slightly. Overall the crowds are virtually nonexistent and there are not many players over 25 in premier division.

Your statements no premier without division- if there was only premier all players would go there. I do understand the need for a 2nd tier. Players live near a club, not as good or cant commit to training. As stated and agreed by you the cream of players will rise to Premier League (Craigy/Richo) and overs drop a league eg Macquarie.

Once again, emphasis on a 2nd tier feeder club and allocation of junior clubs to each senior club would make more sense without any major overhaul. Being at Clubs with no juniors and ones with access to 1000s, this is an area the league could step in and zone off fairly for all divisions.

I think the reason we're needing to have this discussion is clearly stated by a large majority of posters on this thread.
The people involved in high positions at Premier League clubs that openly say they couldn't give a @@@@ about the lower competitions really need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that without one you eventually won't have the other.
Shearer, who is one of your most loyal servants at the Crows? I'd say Rod Craig - and where does he come from. Isn't he a Shark? Would you have such a great player and servant if this so-called insignificant club down the road didn't produce him?
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, not just at St George, but certainly at Balmain (until they went to Macquarie Uni this year anyway), while a club like UNSWES will always be strong because as a university they will always have quality players dropping in their lap out of thin air.
We don't have that luxury or ability.
The opinions that all you Premier League people have been displaying on here are exactly the opinions being held by the Sydney AFL at least since I've been in Sydney and the reason the small (especially Western) clubs are struggling to be competitive.
IHK mentioned the O&M - Garry Burkinshaw is from the Hume league, which is a feeder competition to that league, and he has already performed a resurrection job in the Black Diamond (until two months ago they were State Champions).
I believe he knows what he is doing and I'd put my faith in him to turn things around any day. Ash and Shearer, as key people at your clubs, have you read the release that came out this week? The others may not have, but most of your arguments and concerns have been covered.

To all of you, please think outside the square on this and not just what benefits your own club.
It is most likely that Premier League won't be affected anyway - nor does it need to be.

[The Duck]

Just a couple more points to add: 1) Sorry to offend you Pekay, but I stand by what I posted. 2) BMR I respect your football knowledge but your Rod Craig comment is drawing a long bow. 3) Everyone from the lower divisions is still missing the point.

If you were that hell bent on improving the competition as you all say you are, you would be prepared to sacrifice your own club for the betterment of football in your area. By this I mean we need to merge a lot of the current clubs in the lower levels together. Reduce the number of sides and increase the clubs strengths both financially and player depth wide. It doesn't matter if we had 12-14 stronger clubs in division 1 and leave division 2 for clubs that only want to field one side. Have it as more of a social division. Each club in division 1 could be aligned to a premier league side if need be to give the more talanted players a pathway. Each team in division 1 would have to have a senior side, reserve side and an under 18 side. We have now made the premier league a lot stronger, lets do the same with Division 1 and then Division 2 etc. If you people from the lower divisions think people in Premier league don't care your wrong. We understand what we think would be of benifit to the Sydney AFL. We want to help get your sides set up so they are similiar to Premier league clubs. So in 10 years time your clubs are powerful enough to be able to join the premier league.

[Rafters]

So if I can paraphrase Duck, Shearer & Ash ... apparently football in Sydney is fine & doesn't need to change at all ... if it ain't broke then don't try to fix it.

Can I pose a few questions:

* Is the competition/league & its clubs all financially self-sufficient? If not, how many can genuinely say that they are in financial good health

* how many clubs can afford to survive for 2 years based on current cash reserves? ie not rely on any external sponsorship income in that time.

* Is the Sydney AFL an adequate feeder competition for the AFL?

* What percentage of spectators would watch all three grades from opening siren at 10am through to final siren at 4.45pm? And what percentage of those would do that every week of the whole year?

* In what percentile would the Sydney AFL rank in terms of quality compared to other competitions throughout Australia?

* How many Premier Clubs have played every game across all 3 grades with a full complement of players (including interchange) over the past 10 years? ie no forfeits, no players doubling up, no playing short in any grade

* Are there more people playing senior & u18/19/20 football each week in say the St George / Cronulla region now compared to 1990? If not, then why have participation rates fallen as the AFL brand has grown in general in Sydney?

* can Premier League teams recruit enough players to field 4 sides every week? If so, what has stopped them from doing so?

* do you think that the English Premier League model with its regulation/promotion system is an u/7 model?

* has the abolishment of reserve grade & u/19s in the past two decades in the AFL hurt the AFL brand at all? And have the number of spectators declined as a subsequent result?

* and finally, why has this been the most popular thread on this site for such a long time?

[humphrey bear]

Rafters

I have asked this question 2 other times on this thread and no one has answered so perhaps you can.

How will the new proposal fix any of the probems you have outlined?

Change for changes sake that lets a few club play easier competition wont improve anything. In fact it will probably have the opposite effect.

West Coast, Fremantle and Port Adelaide arent going very well at the minute so maybe they should go and have their own competition so they can win more games and dont have to travel very far.

[Offal]

[QUOTE=BeeEmmAre;406382] Shearer, who is one of your most loyal servants at the Crows? I'd say Rod Craig - and where does he come from. Isn't he a Shark? Would you have such a great player and servant if this so-called insignificant club down the road didn't produce him?

Correct BeeEmmAre. Rod Craig started his Sydney career with the Sharks, playing 3 years with us finishing runner-up in the Snow in 2003 and winning it in 2004 before moving to St George - with the Sharks' 100% blessings - as all our other players have who want to try themselves out in Premier League.

Our 2007 team is also a good example of this with Jason Philp going to Wollongong and Daniel Napper going to Balmain.

Our club is just one where you will find many many examples of players testing themselves at the next level. We are certainly proud of all our players who go down this path.

Back to Rod Craig. He never forgets his roots - he is always down at our ground watching when he can, turns up to our functions or after-game drinks and is and always will be a great clubman for the Sharks.

[ash]

Well put.
An example how div 1 feeder program could work. All Clubs should be proud of players/admin progressing.

Rafters- Sydney Afl v EPL? The water boy in 4th division EPL gets the same amount as all the players combined in SydAFL- good point.

No one is denying that the comp is not where it could be. However it could be much worse.

The suggestions made are not wholesale that are proposed but would substantially assist clubs at both levels and the league.

Do you know how many players that cant get a game in 1 and 2s in Premier League but train or simply quit after rd 4?
These guys who love the game would be ideal to drop to 1st Div and then when injuries strike Premier, be recalled. This is the reason most Clubs suffer for number midway through the season.

Just an idea from someone with an IQ of 168.




QUOTE=Offal;406512]

Shearer, who is one of your most loyal servants at the Crows? I'd say Rod Craig - and where does he come from. Isn't he a Shark? Would you have such a great player and servant if this so-called insignificant club down the road didn't produce him?

Correct BeeEmmAre. Rod Craig started his Sydney career with the Sharks, playing 3 years with us finishing runner-up in the Snow in 2003 and winning it in 2004 before moving to St George - with the Sharks' 100% blessings - as all our other players have who want to try themselves out in Premier League.

Our 2007 team is also a good example of this with Jason Philp going to Wollongong and Daniel Napper going to Balmain.

Our club is just one where you will find many many examples of players testing themselves at the next level. We are certainly proud of all our players who go down this path.

Back to Rod Craig. He never forgets his roots - he is always down at our ground watching when he can, turns up to our functions or after-game drinks and is and always will be a great clubman for the Sharks.

[Rafters]

Rafters

How will the new proposal fix any of the probems you have outlined?

I think the mere fact that the proposal being put forward has generated alot of debate already which is quite healthy for the league. And those opinions that are brought out should not be automatically shot down either without due consideration ... I think all posters have made some valid comments. Well done guys.

Would this proposal be the 100% fix ... no way, definitely not. But can the right solution be found be debating the topic? Most definitely.

In my humble opinion, I think ...

... that there should be a 10 team top league - I don't care who is in it, so long as there are competitive matches being played every week & few blow outs

... there should be a heap of lower grades with a mix match of teams that get promoted/relegated each year

... that there is a big jump from SFA to Premier League as Syd Uni & Wollongong have found ... wouldn't it have been easier if they jumped from a 3rd grade to a 2nd grade for a few years first before jumping to the next level up if they were up to it?

... promotion/regulation into Premier League should be alot harder & based on a number of factors assessed over the preceding 3-5 years (on field & off-field as well as strategic). Just look at the AFL, teams have come & gone in the past few decades & more to come in ... would they kick out Western Sydney & Gold Coast after just one year ... of course not ... but they don't just introduce them in at short notice either ... it is a long process. Does it matter that the VFA/VFL has had that many team changes over the past few years ... no because the elite players will still play top level footy

... it should be noted that not many clubs around in 1908 in Sydney are still around today in the comp ... even Balmain has not been in top level footy for all of those 100 years ... so we need to accept change & the fact that in 100 years time the current premier League clubs will not all be around then.

... we need to encourage more clubs to be created at a senior level if football in Sydney is to prosper

... we need to make the conversion higher for junior numbers playing senior footy as alot stop playing because the transition is too hard ... a great article in this month's Inside Sport about the time of year that a kid is born & that body maturity is around age 23. If the team coming last in u/18 comp is a group of young fellows that just love playing footy, then why not have them playing together as a team in 6th grade the following year & not be forced to change clubs or stop playing altogether because "they are not good enough"

... do we lose players because they don't want to change to the "other club" if they want to play at a higher level ... does that happen at junior level at Westbrook / Penno??

... I agree that the elite player at a young age will generally go to a Premier League side ... as well as those that want to try & better themselves

... I would love to see a St George v Cronulla or Manly v North Shore derbies being played in 2nd grade as much as a premier league match ... unfortunately we only see these matches in pre-season when neither are at full strength or match fit ... would be like the uni derbies that have a bit of passion about them

... I don't think there should be a limit on the number of teams per club - if a club can only field one side but that side is good enough to compete at a higher level then it should do so ... the fact that it can't field an u/18 side should not prohibit a strong first grade side from winning the comp this year

... I couldn't care less if ECE 2nd side are playing in 4th grade or SWS playing in 2nd grade (or vice versa) ... so long as footy is being played in these areas each week

... who cares if the allocation of sides in each lower grade is not quite right in the first year ... it will naturally sort itself out in a few years time ... I am sure that guys like PK would not be silly enough to suggest that his club should be slotted into Premier League because it would be the death of them ... but playing in 5th grade could make them a better club ...

... I don't care if Nor West can only field one team this year or if Balmain may be struggling at u/18

... would this proposal have kept clubs at Bankstown, Liverpool, Holsworthy, Auburn, Blacktown, Hawkesbury, Newtown, Glebe, Wollondilly, etc still going today in some format? Hmmm ... maybe yes, maybe not ... but it would have made it alot easier for them to survive.

There are a million of other thoughts/opinions that I have ... I think they are mostly unbiased as I am not involved with any particular club ... I just like my footy & would love to see footy in Sydney prosper.

To the teams preparing for semi final action ... good luck. It is a great feeling playing in September when the action, like the weather, starts to hot up.