Forfeits

[ShortHalfHead]

Hey, I was talking about dykes!

Sorry, didn't realise I posted with a quote of yours. As for dykes, no idea. We don't have any in Penriff. Think they congregate at the northern end of Castlereagh Rd past Agnes Banks

[unconfuseme]

I have never said if it was actually available to every man and his dog. I do know as a fact it was mentioned to the parents at the "development squad" that Uni had prior to their announcing that they intended to field a team in 2009. I spoke to three parents, all of whom are super reliable. One didn't even know what UAI meant, but told me that one of the parents had a chat to the "offerer" about it. At the meeting they spoke about Collingwood scholarships being available to some players, Uni scholarships, UAI bonus along with gym facilities and the likes if they joined the side.

It was all done very underhanded with secretive calls to talented players from various regions under the guise of just being a bit of an intensive Collingwood 4-6 week training run (Was in 2008 prior to Christmas). Uni didn't announce they were going to field an 18's side until the end of the programme.

As I said, no use harping on and time to move forward. At least other clubs who have gone on a poaching spree aren't in denial about how they do things. I just wanted to give the facts

... this is all correct ... of course, any AFL player who has reaches elite status in their HSC year can apply under the scheme. Playing for SU u/18's would hardly qualify. The non-scholarship players were required 2 years ago to enable the scholarship players a quality training group - had to get them there somehow - truth was, if they were good enough, one of the other 15 AFL clubs would have probably offered a scholarship.

[mountainsofpain]

To be honest I dont care about Sydney Uni offering incentives to play but it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard.

Yes. Exactly.

[Norris Lurker]

The divisional structure for the open-age comps seems to be working well - we've had more teams and hardly any forfeits this year, certainly a lot less than there were a couple of years ago. But the under 18s, with the Premier Division clubs plus Riverview in Premier Cup and the other clubs in Challenge Cup, is throwing up lopsided games and too many forfeits.
Putting the draws out for the senior divisions in December/January is working well; but I wonder if we should wait till later in the pre-season before seeding teams and doing the draws for the Under 18s. Maybe a grading carnival in March, similar to what they did a few years ago. But I don't think that a club having their senior team in Premier Division should automatically qualify their Under 18s for Premier Cup, or that having their senior team in another division means their Under 18s have to play Challenge Cup. The Under 18s would have to earn the right to play in Premier Cup.
Balmain would probably have known they were in trouble in Under 18s during the pre-season, but had to try to soldier on out of their depth in Premier Cup before throwing in the towel. It may have made more sense to rescue them from that position before the season started.
It may be easier for a club like Campbelltown or Balmain to attract Under 18s players if they weren't lambs to the slaughter that knew they were going to get belted every week; while a club with a strong Under 18s lineup in any given year, like Penrith this year, would get to test themselves against opposition that are more worthy of their abilities. And for Challenge Cup, it may be worth lowering the bar and having 15 a side on the field - that will lower the threshold of numbers needed to avoid a forfeit.

[beameup]

My only problem with all this is we are forgetting the concept of a club. To be successful as a club multiple teams are needed to feed through into the higher grades. Everybody aspires to play at the highest possible level until a point is reached that they realise they cannot do it. Imagine a Premier Division club (Or even 1st division) that plays 2nd or 3rd division and challenge Cup due to one or two poor years. How would they ever attract palyers to maintain their standing and tradition. I know a lot of you would say who cares but the reality is that club doews care.NRL for example has its feeder clubs but maintains its U20 team.

We will end up with an English soccer comp without clubs but 50 individual teams. Is that really what we are after. I am all for clubs striving to get bigger and better and playing at high levels and believe in promotion and relegation but it is fairly harsh on the basis of one years performance.

[ShortHalfHead]

Certainly some good points there, Norris. No definative answers from me, but I believe that succesful CC teams should be given the opportunity of promotion like the divisionalisation system allows. Of course that depends on whether or not the club wants promotion based on what they honestly feel their playing numbers and strengths will be the following year. Having an under-strength Premier Cup side is detrimental to the club, their opponents and the league in general. As we all know, players will drop off quickly if they are not playing in a competitive team and the problems escalate from there.
Pre-season grading trials are one option but it didn't really work in the past. I can see some merit in selected games being played with teams that are pushing for PC. No need for the North Shore, ECE, Penno etc clubs to be involved as they are proven PC clubs with strong junior bases and no need for CC teams who aren't looking to go to PC. Clubs struggling in PC have to bite the bullet and realise that dropping down a division means more likelihood of success and a chance to rebuild on that success. Happens in the seniors where teams like Nor-West dropped a division last year, had a good year and were promoted again this year and are doing well. If they had not dropped down in 2009, I don't think they would have been competitive and would have seen some sort of exodus. Amazing what a decent year does for the confidence no matter what division they are playing in.

Re the 15 aside, I don't think it is a viable option. Kids coming up would have played 18 aside for the previous 4-5 years and probably don't want to go back to playing Under 12's footy. It's not an encouragement to clubs to try and get 25+ squads on their books.

[Shotties]

it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard.

Tell me everything you know about Uni's work with juniors in the area.

[tara]

Tell me everything you know about Uni's work with juniors in the area.

Mate I didnt have a go at you or say your not trying anything but at this stage can you honestly say that you have any sort of sustainable base at present from which you can sustain your 18's without looking to other areas. You can use the argument of kids going to the Uni wanting to play for the Uni all you want but unless they are a child prodigy most students wouldnt qualify for 18's and if they did they would be second year 18's. What I and I suspect most here would like to see is that over the next few years your clubs 18's is developed around your local junior clubs.

The uni's have a natural advantage of attracting a wide cross section of the young adult population and yours in particular as one that could be argued the most prestigious in Sydney also draws a large contingent of interstate students would find it easier to attract players as it would be convient to both play, train and study in the one location.

Do you know what it is like to work closely with junior clubs over a number of years to see very little return and to then have clubs like yours which are well outside of the region sway kids with stars in their eyes with bull@@@@? We have worked closely with three junior clubs over the in particular the past 4 years but at present only one fields a 16's team and only one likes like doing so again in 2011.

Everyone of our kids are locals and around half are from non AFL backgrounds but we dont care, we are prepared to put in the time and effort to develop them. You guys put together a star studded team that I suspect almost not one of your seniors players would have known before they arrived. 30% of my senior side are new to the game and even a bigger percentage in the ressies.

Clubs in the western suburbs in particular have a hard time attracting players as most young people in the area regard AFL as an Alien sport.
Do you know how perilous the state of the junior competition in the South West is? At this stage our club only has in reality 7 kids available to attempt to attract to our 18's next year primarly due to our current pathway?
Are you aware that Bankstown Juniors are they only club that is viable for us to look at has been zoned to GWS and this may see one of the better run junior clubs decimated with departures to to the fact that almost 100% of the parents there want nothing to do with it?
Bankstown is also a feeder club to three PD clubs as well as another 3 lower div clubs at present.

I could go on for ever but are you able to answer one last question? Why did Paul Roos and the Swans get so uptight about the way you went about things?

[Shotties]

Mate I didnt have a go at you or say your not trying anything

You just said "it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard." so I asked what you knew about SUs work in the area to be able to make such a definitive statement.

[tara]

You just said "it would be nice to see them actually try and develop a sustainable junior junior base in their own backyard." so I asked what you knew about SUs work in the area to be able to make such a definitive statement.

Why dont you tell us. No one here can see any evidence of it yet.

[Shotties]

Why dont you tell us. No one here can see any evidence of it yet.

Yes but people on here equivocate me saying that SUANFC can't give out ATAR points with the University not giving out sports scholarships full stop, so you'll have to pardon my doubting the general powers of perception on here. You made the statement, I was curious as to what you knew. I generally don't pass comment on the inner workings of other clubs because, well, I don't know.

[PATCHY]

The divisional structure for the open-age comps seems to be working well - we've had more teams and hardly any forfeits this year, certainly a lot less than there were a couple of years ago. But the under 18s, with the Premier Division clubs plus Riverview in Premier Cup and the other clubs in Challenge Cup, is throwing up lopsided games and too many forfeits.
Putting the draws out for the senior divisions in December/January is working well; but I wonder if we should wait till later in the pre-season before seeding teams and doing the draws for the Under 18s. Maybe a grading carnival in March, similar to what they did a few years ago. But I don't think that a club having their senior team in Premier Division should automatically qualify their Under 18s for Premier Cup, or that having their senior team in another division means their Under 18s have to play Challenge Cup. The Under 18s would have to earn the right to play in Premier Cup.
Balmain would probably have known they were in trouble in Under 18s during the pre-season, but had to try to soldier on out of their depth in Premier Cup before throwing in the towel. It may have made more sense to rescue them from that position before the season started.
It may be easier for a club like Campbelltown or Balmain to attract Under 18s players if they weren't lambs to the slaughter that knew they were going to get belted every week; while a club with a strong Under 18s lineup in any given year, like Penrith this year, would get to test themselves against opposition that are more worthy of their abilities. And for Challenge Cup, it may be worth lowering the bar and having 15 a side on the field - that will lower the threshold of numbers needed to avoid a forfeit.

Have to agree Norris.
makes sense to me.

Also a bit out there but...
maybe worth going to 3 comps of 6 for the 18 to help get over the current speed bump.
prem div with top 6 teams only
2x second tier 6 team comps based along geographical lines to reduce travel for away games.
North/west and south/east perhaps.
May be easier to fill teams ,particularly the early games a distance away from home .

[mountainsofpain]

Tell me everything you know about Uni's work with juniors in the area.

Well, for a start, I know that Sydney Uni regards its local junior recruiting area as extending out as far as Penrith.

[snow leopard]

Why dont you tell us. No one here can see any evidence of it yet.

Most senior clubs do nothing for junior development they just take the recruits after under 16's, pick the ones they want and use the rest at there convenience or discard them. Those clubs that do help out with juniors is only minor and dare i say it lip service rules the day (oh look we are helping our junior clubs). In essence a traning session here and there is the best i have seen. Picking on the uni's is probably not the right thing here. Under the pathway system the uni's need to be accomodated as well. Even if it gives juniors a choice of where to go after junior footy. If we are going to spread the game we need to spread the talent available. 18's should play 18's not 1st, 2nd 3rd or 4th grade. If an under 18 is good enough to play 1st's or 2nd's then they should play there and not be allowed to play 18's. Club's with 18's should be limited to say 30-32 players any excess over that should be sent to other clubs BY THE AFL this will in turn stop forfeits because clubs will have numbers. If the game is going to go anywhere you cannot have the SUPER CLUBS NS, Penno, ECE and St George having huge lists of players and other clubs forfeiting because of poor numbers.

[tara]

SUPER CLUBS NS, Penno, ECE and St George having huge lists of players and other clubs forfeiting because of poor numbers.

Firstly last time I looked NS and StG only have three teams, Saints in particular is one that is built around their local talen to say the are a Super Club is absurd - I wasnt picking on the Unis, all I did was point out what most feel regarding what should be a long dead issue of SU's questionble establishment of their under 18's. Also surely is you want to brand clubs as you have then SU should be at the top of the tree as the are only club that fields senior teams in all grades of Sydney football as well as an PD 18's team. As for the other uni's I have always had a good relationship with UNSW and MU.

With regards the rest of you speil I agree with most of what you have said but not allowing 18's to drop back after playing seniors I dont, after a long season many of these kids will be struggling both physically and mentally and should be allowed the opportunity to play against their peers. I would much rather that 18's except in the exceptional cases only play 18's and compete in a grade where their opponents are at similar stages of physical development.

If the AFL want to improve the stuggling 18's comp then perhaps they look at keeping the u18's as PD and raising the challenge cup to u19 level to allow those kids an extra year. Lets be honest Sydney football are hell bent of following everything the AFL do but in reality most kids are already identified well before 18's and kids playing challenge cup have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting drafted.