Balmain Dockers Under 18's Withdraw

[mountainsofpain]

Well before the game had all the millions injected into it we had a very very viable U19 and U20 system in Sydney. WIth the junior clubs out Campbelltown way there is absolutely no way the numbers are not there. Similarly with Balmain and their 3 junior clubs.

If we can't get at least 20 under age teams on the field in a city of 5M people then we may as well give up given how much the AFL have allegedly invested here. I see it more as a misue of the resources - they simply cut out at the junior level - if a kid aint gping to be drafted they simply don't care.

Surely it is time for the AFL to get serious about some real development of the game at senior level in Sydney.

I still think the idea of reverting to the U19/U20 model has enormous merit.....

My understanding is that it reverted to Under 18s when the highest age group in junior comps went down from Under 17s to Under 16s (in the mid 90s I think).

I don't know if the Under 19s/Under 20s system was a brilliant success every year, but as an example in 1990 there were 8 Under 19 sides and 15 Under 20 sides - again, I don't know if there weren't forfeits happening here either (I would suspect there were):
(U19 sides were: North Shore, St George, Parramatta, Campbelltown, Hills, Western Suburbs, Sydney Uni, East Sydney)
(U20 sides were: Wollongong, Baulkham Hills, Balmain, Sutherland, Liverpool, Manly, Northern Eagles, Mac Uni, Bankstown, Uni of NSW - Div 1; Nepean/Blacktown, Camden, Hawkesbury, Penrith, HMAS Nirimba - Div 2)

But 23 Under Age sides in 1990 compared to what we have now in the Under 18s means we haven't travelled a long way in 20 years. In fact we seem to have gone backwards.

I'm not sure whether it is viable to go to Under 19/Under 20 again, (eg would it rob senior footy of too much talent, is the jump from Under 16s too great). But it is an option to consider, that's for sure.

[Mug Punter]

Funds are poured into NSW by the AFL for two reasons - firstly, as you said, to develop kids via the elite programmes in the hope of developing a talent pool for the draft. And secondly, it is poured into the game at the junior level to develop AFL consumers - ie to make sure all the kids who go through the Auskick & junior ranks will gobble up AFL product as kids and adults (that is to go to games, watch it on TV, buy and wear merchandise, and generally be AFL friendly in what used to be a very hostile environment).

The AFL doesn't pour these millions into NSW to see the Sydney AFL grow and develop. It spends the money to either generate further revenue or to directly benefit the national competition. Whether the Sydney AFL thrives or not really is irrelevant to them - I doubt if Andrew D gives a rats to be honest.

Don't get me wrong - I think the AFL should care about grassroots senior football (not just in NSW either), because that is one of its responsibilities as the caretaker of the code. However, while another of its responsibilities is to run the multi-multi-multi-million dollar AFL competition the money generating areas of the game will always dominate its priorities - and grassroots senior footy isn't one of them.

I agree unfortunately and it's why this whole Team GWS makes my blood boil. There's no legacy to the game at all, just a TV deal so the AFL Fat Cats can justify their enormous salaries.

Until they get Senior footyy and a real football culture in Sydney we will never be able to support two AFL teams on a sustainable basis...

[SecondHalf]

My understanding is that it reverted to Under 18s when the highest age group in junior comps went down from Under 17s to Under 16s (in the mid 90s I think).

I don't know if the Under 19s/Under 20s system was a brilliant success every year, but as an example in 1990 there were 8 Under 19 sides and 15 Under 20 sides - again, I don't know if there weren't forfeits happening here either (I would suspect there were):
(U19 sides were: North Shore, St George, Parramatta, Campbelltown, Hills, Western Suburbs, Sydney Uni, East Sydney)
(U20 sides were: Wollongong, Baulkham Hills, Balmain, Sutherland, Liverpool, Manly, Northern Eagles, Mac Uni, Bankstown, Uni of NSW - Div 1; Nepean/Blacktown, Camden, Hawkesbury, Penrith, HMAS Nirimba - Div 2)

You are correct. It used to be juniors in 2yr age brackets in uneven numbers - U13, U15, U17... when it changed to even numbers U16 was the oldest junior age so kids had to go to what generally was their closest premier or sfa club for U18s. Maybe reverting back could work but I don't see justifiably why it would. If the numbers aren't there then surely it's the same problem regardless of age being U17/U19 or U18...?

[Mug Punter]

You are correct. It used to be juniors in 2yr age brackets in uneven numbers - U13, U15, U17... when it changed to even numbers U16 was the oldest junior age so kids had to go to what generally was their closest premier or sfa club for U18s. Maybe reverting back could work but I don't see justifiably why it would. If the numbers aren't there then surely it's the same problem regardless of age being U17/U19 or U18...?

The reason it should work is that it gives under age footballers an extra year in the system. Clearly we have an issue with numbers and keeping kids in the game, this should assist. Many kids would be much more comfortable playing under age footy at 18 too. In any event that stat from 1990 really does ram home the parlous state of the game in Sydney.

If it's good enough for the VAFA, the comp we should be modelling ourselves on in Sydney IMO, to have U19s and U20s then it should be good enough for us....

[unconfuseme]

Yes, let's merge juniro clubs. What a brilliant idea to develop the game

Well before the game had all the millions injected into it we had a very very viable U19 and U20 system in Sydney. WIth the junior clubs out Campbelltown way there is absolutely no way the numbers are not there. Similarly with Balmain and their 3 junior clubs.

How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

[Mug Punter]

How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

The idea that we have too many Senior Clubs in Sydney is probably the most riduculous post I have heard on here and that includes 48 Hour Detox's musings....

The Unis on the whole don't poach juniors. They do provide good facilities, well supported administrations and welcoming environments. You'd be surprised how many first year Uni players are new to the game.

Ask Tara if merging Bankstown with Liverpool was a good ide and now you want Liverpool to merge with the Blues. Ludicrous in te extreme.

What we need is MORE senior clubs but the transition from U16 to the club network needs strengteneing and the senior clubs need more support.

[tara]

How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

Love comments where people open their mouths and voice their opinions on topics they obviously know nothing about.

[mountainsofpain]

Merging senior sides is the last thing you would want to do if you want the senior game to grow in Sydney.

As has been pointed out, you need to find ways of getting more juniors going through from 16s to 18s - and then from 18s to seniors. I would assume that both those areas have significant player leakages.

[Doormat]

Spot on unconfuseme.

Bottom line let the Sydney AFL run a regional U'18's comp.
From there kids will be able to correctly take the path way into Sydney seniors.
Regions should be split up based on where the most kids are i.e. Inner city "may" have 3 teams & would feed Balmain/Uni/UNSW, where the north west may only have 2 teams and feed P/H/ECE/Mac UNI & the west have 2-3 teams & feed Campbelltown/Riff/Northwest etc etc. It will bring the both grades premier/challenge into play & really allow for development as kids can go up or down based on performance.

This will stop ECE/UNI poaching & paying kids & allow for senior clubs to concentrate on surviving the next 5-10years. No one will have any rights to these teams. let the seniors play as seniors & the juniors develop under the SAFL. We "could" even have a draft should a kid not want to go to his pathway club because UNI/ECE have got in the ear of the player/parent. Clubs could then be compensated correctly.

I know PK this is your idea but you have sat on it for to long.

How did you work that out???

I said TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS ... THEY need to merge, because the juniors you seem to think are everywhere are diminishing in those 2 areas in particular, and across Sydney in general !

Balmain have 3 junior clubs ... about half what a Senior divison 1 club needs to be sustainable.

Campelltown/Liverpool due to the tyranny of distance, poor management and lack of senior club support has seen those junior clubs forced to play in ... GWS! too far to travel, back to soccer, league etc they go! Most of those former strong junior clubs are lucky to be able to field Auskickers and one or 2 other full teams!!

So, as I said, apart from the Uni Clubs, who do not need juniors, but are forced to poach them, in general, there are TOO MANY SENIOR CLUBS as a ratio to juniors across Sydney ... get it?

...and it wouldn't matter if they were u/16's, 17's, 18's etc ... the numbers just do not add up!

[Mug Punter]

Spot on unconfuseme.

Bottom line let the Sydney AFL run a regional U'18's comp.
From there kids will be able to correctly take the path way into Sydney seniors.
Regions should be split up based on where the most kids are i.e. Inner city "may" have 3 teams & would feed Balmain/Uni/UNSW, where the north west may only have 2 teams and feed P/H/ECE/Mac UNI & the west have 2-3 teams & feed Campbelltown/Riff/Northwest etc etc. It will bring the both grades premier/challenge into play & really allow for development as kids can go up or down based on performance.

This will stop ECE/UNI poaching & paying kids & allow for senior clubs to concentrate on surviving the next 5-10years. No one will have any rights to these teams. let the seniors play as seniors & the juniors develop under the SAFL. We "could" even have a draft should a kid not want to go to his pathway club because UNI/ECE have got in the ear of the player/parent. Clubs could then be compensated correctly.

I know PK this is your idea but you have sat on it for to long.

Yes, an Sydney AFL Player Draft so dozen of kids are forced to play with clubs against their wishes, possibly travelling halfway across Sydney at their own expense.

You are a PEANUT!

[Doormat]

Thanks Mug clearly you let your emotion get the better of you again.

If just for a moment please take off those Blue & gold glasses, as l stated "Could" on the basis that if ECE/UNI do the norm offer kids money to play, the club that the kid is lost to is compensated fairly.
But this new model would stop that. Under this model kids would be forced to play in there own pathway choosing between a first division club or to play with mates.
Pretty fair system & most clubs wouldn't have to pay for it. get it.

FYI, kids are travelling half way around Sydney & the central coast to play with ECE/UNI 18's now & have done so for some time, its proven & its a fact.

Yes, an Sydney AFL Player Draft so dozen of kids are forced to play with clubs against their wishes, possibly travelling halfway across Sydney at their own expense.

You are a PEANUT!

[beameup]

Thanks Mug clearly you let your emotion get the better of you again.

If just for a moment please take off those Blue & gold glasses, as l stated "Could" on the basis that if ECE/UNI do the norm offer kids money to play, the club that the kid is lost to is compensated fairly.
But this new model would stop that. Under this model kids would be forced to play in there own pathway choosing between a first division club or to play with mates.
Pretty fair system & most clubs wouldn't have to pay for it. get it.

FYI, kids are travelling half way around Sydney & the central coast to play with ECE/UNI 18's now & have done so for some time, its proven & its a fact.

Why would clubs be compensated? They have not paid one cent to the development of boys in the juniors so are you suggesting they be compensated for not getting someone they never had. This is amateur footy albeit that a few blokes get paid.

In terms of the Central Coast basically all the 16 and 17 year olds that come to Sydney do sobecause they have had a taste of better footy with Northern Heat and go to Penno anyway.
If you consider that they should be forced to a club because of some weird draft concept I suggest you think about the standard and age that we are talking about. They are boys wanting to play better footy in what is not even the strongest league in NSW. The criteria for most of them is to play as close to home as possible with as good a team as possible.

In saying that there are at times reasons why they go elsewhere which can be mates, parental connections, incentives, a winning team, a traditional strong club or even a club who are prepared to assist with some travel costs.

Why would anyone want to restrict this?

[Doormat]

Teams get compensated should a player not go via the pathway. Everybody wins.

Should get your facts right & not all the central coast players go to Penno!!
Uni & ECE have plenty that they pay.

Let the SAFL control the 18's comp by regions, then you dont have these issues such as UNI/ECE paying kids $200/500 per week or paying under handed payments such as scholarships????

Senior clubs can get on with being senior clubs & focusing on survival & not going head to with Uni/ECE with over inflated payments.

FYI, the infrastructure is already in place at the TPP level.

Why would clubs be compensated? They have not paid one cent to the development of boys in the juniors so are you suggesting they be compensated for not getting someone they never had. This is amateur footy albeit that a few blokes get paid.

In terms of the Central Coast basically all the 16 and 17 year olds that come to Sydney do sobecause they have had a taste of better footy with Northern Heat and go to Penno anyway.
If you consider that they should be forced to a club because of some weird draft concept I suggest you think about the standard and age that we are talking about. They are boys wanting to play better footy in what is not even the strongest league in NSW. The criteria for most of them is to play as close to home as possible with as good a team as possible.

In saying that there are at times reasons why they go elsewhere which can be mates, parental connections, incentives, a winning team, a traditional strong club or even a club who are prepared to assist with some travel costs.

Why would anyone want to restrict this?

[Shotties]

Uni & ECE have plenty that they pay.

Yeah, there'd be a few in line before any of the 18s got anything if that were the case.

[unconfuseme]

Spot on unconfuseme.

... now I'm not so sure that I am right!

Seriously ... as for "opinions on topics they obviously know nothing about." ... maybe I'm wrong?

I stand corrected, there are are plenty of juniors running around Campbelltown, Liverpool and Balmain?

Give me a break!

Those clubs all struggle to field an 18's side, or, forfeit or have to draw from players outside their areas - because they do not have enough strong junior teams.

Balmain and Campbelltown are culpable, having presided over the demise of juniors for years (Balmain probably less so because of the demographic).

Magpies are victims of circumstance, having walked into the problem. They are proactive, and the best chance the juniors in their area have had for a long time!

But the facts are undeniable ... I reckon the perfect model would see a ratio of about 1 senior club for every 4 or 5 strong junior clubs, and a strong interaction between both.

How many junior clubs feeding to the new Auburn and Maroubra clubs? ... who's juniors will they be draining?

Poor planning, poor management, from the top. The AFL beats it's chest about new clubs like these, like Camden were, and even Moorebank, to what end?! The net effect is actually a weakening of the whole structure, as there is a shortage of volunteers, administrators, coaches and juniors to start with.

but maybe I'm wrong?

As for a draft, probably not needed now that there is no Scholarship program. The 2 academy system will actually be beneficial to senior clubs, particularly in the west, as there will only be Swans or GWS in the market for kids, and each is restricted to their zone. Collingwood will no doubt pull their support for Uni pretty smartly.