RWO Ideas Forum - Promotion & Relegation

[Norris Lurker]

Only a week to go in the regular season, and the wooden spponers in all the divisions are already determined. The finals will determine who gets promoted; but how could the divisions look next year?

Premier Division stays as is - but should it? Is there any club you think should go up, and if so, should someone go down?
First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.
Second Division - UNSW-ES will be relegated, the Third Division premier will be promoted.
Third Division - Holroyd-Parramatta are bottom team but they already have a team in Fourth Division so they can't be relegated.
Fourth Division - Auburn have been the dominant force in that division, and would welcome the chance to go up next season. But if the Goannas can't be relegated from Third Division, will there be a place for Auburn in the higher division? Could Third Division go to 11 teams to accommodate Auburn? Maybe 12 and promote Saints as well?

And what of the Under 18s? Is this season's lopsided results and forfeits a sign that Premier Division teams shouldn't automatically have their Under 18s in Premier Cup? Have Penrith earned the right to go up?

What are your thoughts?

[mountainsofpain]

Fourteen teams is far too many for Fourth Division. Provided no teams dropped out and we could get a couple more teams in, you could have eight teams in 4th and eight in a new 5th Division. If no new teams were to come in, you could look at having Divisions 3, 4 & 5 with eight teams each.

That would give a bit more flexibility with some of the gradings (eg Parra may be able to go to 4th and 5th Divisions, Mac Uni could have a side in each of 4th and 5th instead of both in 4th, etc), it would probably even things up a little more down in the lower grades and would hopefully encourage clubs like Parra and Penno to retain their third sides rather than thinking they are a waste of time. Plus with eight sides in the bottom divisions, it gives clubs a bit more of a chance to make the finals, which is an incentive for players (especially the newer ones) to stay around.

It's only an idea off the top of my head and I don't have the time to go into great depth about it. But I just wanted to throw it out there. Feel free to shoot it down if you wish.

Six senior comps is not new ground for Sydney footy by the way, from 1987-88 and 1992-93 we had:
Premier Division (whatever it was called then) - Seniors & Reserves
First Division (the old SFA) - Seniors and Reserves
Second Division (the old SFA 2 or whatever it was) - Seniors and Reserves

And in one season (1992), we actually had seven Senior competitions, with a Third Division (SFA 3) playing in addition to the above. That season saw 52 sides compete, in comparison with the current 54 (in order of divisions, the 52 sides comprised per division - 8, 8, 10, 10, 6, 5 & 5).

[Mug Punter]

Fourteen teams is far too many for Fourth Division. Provided no teams dropped out and we could get a couple more teams in, you could have eight teams in 4th and eight in a new 5th Division. If no new teams were to come in, you could look at having Divisions 3, 4 & 5 with eight teams each.

That would give a bit more flexibility with some of the gradings (eg Parra may be able to go to 4th and 5th Divisions, Mac Uni could have a side in each of 4th and 5th instead of both in 4th, etc), it would probably even things up a little more down in the lower grades and would hopefully encourage clubs like Parra and Penno to retain their third sides rather than thinking they are a waste of time. Plus with eight sides in the bottom divisions, it gives clubs a bit more of a chance to make the finals, which is an incentive for players (especially the newer ones) to stay around.

It's only an idea off the top of my head and I don't have the time to go into great depth about it. But I just wanted to throw it out there. Feel free to shoot it down if you wish.

Six senior comps is not new ground for Sydney footy by the way, from 1987-88 and 1992-93 we had:
Premier Division (whatever it was called then) - Seniors & Reserves
First Division (the old SFA) - Seniors and Reserves
Second Division (the old SFA 2 or whatever it was) - Seniors and Reserves

And in one season (1992), we actually had seven Senior competitions, with a Third Division (SFA 3) playing in addition to the above. That season saw 52 sides compete, in comparison with the current 54 (in order of divisions, the 52 sides comprised per division - 8, 8, 10, 10, 6, 5 & 5).

Out of interest, which clubs have gone out of existence since 1992?

Northern Eagles would be one but can't think of too many other. Bargo, Penshurst, Hawkesbury Ag, Bankstown or Blackrown could be possibilities but there must be other as Sydney Uni and Mac Uni didn't have 5 and 4 senior teams back then and UTS weren't about...

[Mug Punter]

Only a week to go in the regular season, and the wooden spponers in all the divisions are already determined. The finals will determine who gets promoted; but how could the divisions look next year?

Premier Division stays as is - but should it? Is there any club you think should go up, and if so, should someone go down?
First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.
Second Division - UNSW-ES will be relegated, the Third Division premier will be promoted.
Third Division - Holroyd-Parramatta are bottom team but they already have a team in Fourth Division so they can't be relegated.
Fourth Division - Auburn have been the dominant force in that division, and would welcome the chance to go up next season. But if the Goannas can't be relegated from Third Division, will there be a place for Auburn in the higher division? Could Third Division go to 11 teams to accommodate Auburn? Maybe 12 and promote Saints as well?

And what of the Under 18s? Is this season's lopsided results and forfeits a sign that Premier Division teams shouldn't automatically have their Under 18s in Premier Cup? Have Penrith earned the right to go up?

What are your thoughts?

North Shore should definitely be able to field a thirds team and perhaps one of the new boys (Auburn or Maroubra) could cobble up a seconds side. Who knows, maybe another new team could spring up. St Ignations Old Boys or St Ives being resurrected or team somewhwere between Parramatta and Penrith would be possibilities.

I agree though that 14 is too many so by hook or crook we need Division 4 and 5 to have at least 8 teams each next year.

If we are serious about a decent Sydney comp then we need at least 8 divisions leading unltimately to a four division, two grade set up with automatic promotion and relegation. Surely the VAFA rather than the VFL should be the model for Sydney footy....

[mountainsofpain]

Out of interest, which clubs have gone out of existence since 1992?

Northern Eagles would be one but can't think of too many other. Bargo, Penshurst, Hawkesbury Ag, Bankstown or Blackrown could be possibilities but there must be other as Sydney Uni and Mac Uni didn't have 5 and 4 senior teams back then and UTS weren't about...

The entire Div 3 for a start - Hawks Ag, Heathcote, Holsworthy (Liverpool third side?), HMAS Nirimba and Merrylands (Parra 3rd side?). Then Bargo, Blacktown and Northern Eagles, plus Liverpool/Bankstown and Uni of NSW/East Sydney were still separate clubs pre-merger. (Do Bargo/Wollondilly still run around in the South Coast AFL?).

Plus back then Penno was called Hills, East Coast Eagles were Baulkham Hills, Southern Power were Sutherland, Holroyd-Parramatta was simply Parramatta and it was Hawkesbury not the Nor-West Jets. We also had Camden still in Sydney footy before they went south, only to come back again.

A lot of changes in Sydney footy........

[Pekay]

Hawkesbury Ag??? Don't know that they existed. Perhaps confused with the Saints?

Was told by one of the Maroubra boys yesterday that they'll field two teams next year, whether they are good enough for Div 3 & 4 is the question.

[mountainsofpain]

Hawkesbury Ag??? Don't know that they existed. Perhaps confused with the Saints?

Nope, definitely a separate club.

I think they lasted two years, 91 & 92.

Not sure what they used as their home ground, is there a ground at the Ag College?

Was told by one of the Maroubra boys yesterday that they'll field two teams next year, whether they are good enough for Div 3 & 4 is the question.

They can field sides in Div 4 & 5 then.

[Coastal Boy]

[QUOTE=Norris Lurker;501831]
First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.

Why cant UNSW be relegated??????

[BIGSHOW]

So what if UTS win 2nd div and can't go up and UNSW finish last in div 1 and can't go down what happens then?

[Norris Lurker]

[QUOTE=Coastal Boy;501933]

First Division - Wollongong will be relegated, the Second Division premier will be promoted. Southern Power would be the front-runner, but as we saw last year nothing is certain until grand final day.

Why cant UNSW be relegated??????

Good point, UNSW-ES are last in Second Division and will go down; so if they come last in First Division there's nothing to stop them being relegated. And there's not a lot of percentage between them.

[BIGSHOW]

So if UTS win 1st 2nd 3rd div they can't be promoted.does that mean teams can't be relegated

[Mahatma]

i dont think too many teams that will be playing finals are worried about next year yet.
and pekay i wouldnt worry too much about maroubra or any other club not being good enough at the moment id concentrate on getting your team out of div 4 because your great goal of beating penrith on the ladder isnt going to happen.

[Coastal Boy]

So if UTS win 1st 2nd 3rd div they can't be promoted.does that mean teams can't be relegated

Remember, the league has the power to promote or relegate any team regardless of ladder position. I pity Wollongong if they get relegated. It would be a logistics nightmare travelling so far to multiple venues on one weekend. IMO they might as well wave the white flag now if that happens.

[JAYEFBE]

A 14 team div 4 isn't ideal. A div 5 to startup would be a great idea, and would encourage clubs to strive for a 3rd/4th side if they had the numbers.

However, new clubs should NOT be put straight into the bottom division, a little thought would be required to gauge experience etc. Auburn and Saints for eg. would wipe the floor every week if they were playing the bottom 5 teams of the current div 4 in a div 5 comp this year. Bad decisions re grading for new clubs has the potential to ruin the years competition for the lower Divs.

[Pekay]

i dont think too many teams that will be playing finals are worried about next year yet.
and pekay i wouldnt worry too much about maroubra or any other club not being good enough at the moment id concentrate on getting your team out of div 4 because your great goal of beating penrith on the ladder isnt going to happen.

Wow, did you take offence from that comment Croc? Getting soft n sensitive in your autumn years.