Is the NEAFL killing the SFL?

[Mug Punter]

Is it just me or is this season the most lifelesss start to a footy season in living memory.

The two strongest teams have left to play in a stronger comp that only they care about (how many neutrals care about SU v Tuggeranong really?). The remaining clubs have been weakened and even the winner will feel like they have won the award for the 3rd best team in Sydney.

Has the NSWAFL got this horribly wrong AGAIN?

If the lack of traffic on this site is any indication we may as well call the season off due to a lack of interest.

[Swansinger]

Yeah , maybe . Sydney Hills/East Coast Eagles prem team won't be dominating the SFL in THIS season!
Kids and lesser lights have had to "step up", so it will be a tough challenge. Still , if they rise to it , we may see the fruits in a coupla years.

[Norris Lurker]

In some ways, Easter coming when it did plus an odd number of teams hasn't helped. North Shore played one game and then haven't played for three weeks; Balmain didn't play a game till Sunday. If this rain keeps going and lower division games get postponed this weekend, there'll be people in Sydney footy who are so un-match-fit that the season will be half over before it really gets going.

I can see your point MP. I had a lunch engagement on Saturday and didn't get to Bruce Purser to do my match report till half time; but the Sydney Hills side that took the field didn't look like the reigning premiers. There were only a handful of last year's premiership side that were playing; the rest of them were playing in the NEAFL. UNSW-ES were very impressive, but it felt like they were playing a reserves team. And they were.
My theory is that in every club there are a few players who are too good to be playing there and could easily handle playing at a higher level. Of course those players will play seniors. That's a major reason why, since the divisional structure came in, senior teams have nearly always beaten reserves teams. And now we're seeing the same thing happen in Premier Division, the players from SHE and SU who are too good for Premier Division are playing NEAFL; and it's left a void in their Premier Division teams.

I don't know what the answer is. There's a million reasons why it's impossible and impractical and will never happen; but I wouldn't mind seeing the team that wins the Premier Division grand final playing off against the bottom Sydney NEAFL team for the NEAFL licence the next year, like a promotion-relegation playoff.

[Mug Punter]

I wouldn't mind seeing the team that wins the Premier Division grand final playing off against the bottom Sydney NEAFL team for the NEAFL licence the next year, like a promotion-relegation playoff.

That would be a great way of having a the flag at SFL mean something. Fat chance it will happen though, it is waaaay too logical

[The Student]

If I were a neutral I'd much rather watch SU v Tuggeranong or SH v Belco than UTS V Wollongong or Penno v North Shore (no offence to any of those clubs, just the first ones that came to mind). No doubt having SU and SH fielding virtual reserves teams has weakened the PD comp significantly but they will be more than competitive in years to come. They were never going to be able to pick up 25 NE quality players to allow their PD team to stay as it was - it will take a few seasons. Both teams are effectively promotions from Div 1 and are struggling with the step up at the moment.

The two strongest teams have left to play in a stronger comp that only they care about (how many neutrals care about SU v Tuggeranong really?). The remaining clubs have been weakened and even the winner will feel like they have won the award for the 3rd best team in Sydney.

[unconfuseme]

The exposure to NEAFL for Sydney AFL is a great concept that the AFL has stuffed from day one!!

Yes, the combination of the 2 AFL club academies and exposure to the NEAFL competition, will ultimately strengthen the quality of AFL in Sydney.

Most of the players who attend the academies or go to the NEAFL clubs will cycle through fairly quickly, and end up back in lower divisional competition. They are already bringing best practice coaching, training and conditioning regimes to their teams and clubs, a lot of whom have been stuck in a time warp for the past 40 years!

However, the whole premise of 2 Sydney CLUB teams competing in the next level competition was flawed from the outset. It is elitist, and does nothing to maximise support for the NEAFL. It is also detrimental to the structure of Sydney Club AFL.

Firstly, to think that the other clubs could retain ambitious quality players and stay stable and strong or better yet grow, was just fantasy.

This is naturally going to undermine smaller weaker clubs (see Campbelltown as a current example, are their talented u/18s who are being forced to play in a weak first grade side now, going to be able to resist the offers they will receive next season?)

The answer is two teams, equally funded by the AFL, closely affiliated with the Swan's and GWS and their respective zone senior clubs, with qualifying restrictions ensuring that they are made up of the best emerging talent from the clubs in their own pathways.

This could at least then be supported by ALL Sydney Clubs and supporters, and be aspired to by all players as a potential pathway to higher levels.

I would much rather see a 19 y.o. ex Penrith junior, who just missed being drafted, playing for say, ?The GWS Midgets" in the NEAFL, and likewise an ex St George junior with "The Sydney Cygnets" ... you would then see TRUE support for these teams from their grass roots clubs ... be buggered if I'm interested in watching SU play ECE regardless of who is playing for them, but I would go to support and watch the Cygnets smash the Midgets!!!

I'm sure it would also generate interest from the Swans and the Giants, as they will get a chance to monitor not just youngsters, but also mature aged players from their zone who may have otherwise "slipped through the cracks".

If these entities are not redefined, I reckon it will only be a few years and we will see SU and ECE fielding multiple teams in each division, and a lot more struggling one and two team clubs out in the suburbs who are forfeiting every other week ? I can?t see many of those supporters or volunteers gravitating to the ?super clubs? ? more likely to just drift away from the code!

[ShortHalfHead]

The exposure to NEAFL for Sydney AFL is a great concept that the AFL has stuffed from day one!!

Yes, the combination of the 2 AFL club academies and exposure to the NEAFL competition, will ultimately strengthen the quality of AFL in Sydney.

Most of the players who attend the academies or go to the NEAFL clubs will cycle through fairly quickly, and end up back in lower divisional competition. They are already bringing best practice coaching, training and conditioning regimes to their teams and clubs, a lot of whom have been stuck in a time warp for the past 40 years!

However, the whole premise of 2 Sydney CLUB teams competing in the next level competition was flawed from the outset. It is elitist, and does nothing to maximise support for the NEAFL. It is also detrimental to the structure of Sydney Club AFL.

Firstly, to think that the other clubs could retain ambitious quality players and stay stable and strong or better yet grow, was just fantasy.

This is naturally going to undermine smaller weaker clubs (see Campbelltown as a current example, are their talented u/18s who are being forced to play in a weak first grade side now, going to be able to resist the offers they will receive next season?)

The answer is two teams, equally funded by the AFL, closely affiliated with the Swan's and GWS and their respective zone senior clubs, with qualifying restrictions ensuring that they are made up of the best emerging talent from the clubs in their own pathways.

This could at least then be supported by ALL Sydney Clubs and supporters, and be aspired to by all players as a potential pathway to higher levels.

I would much rather see a 19 y.o. ex Penrith junior, who just missed being drafted, playing for say, ?The GWS Midgets" in the NEAFL, and likewise an ex St George junior with "The Sydney Cygnets" ... you would then see TRUE support for these teams from their grass roots clubs ... be buggered if I'm interested in watching SU play ECE regardless of who is playing for them, but I would go to support and watch the Cygnets smash the Midgets!!!

I'm sure it would also generate interest from the Swans and the Giants, as they will get a chance to monitor not just youngsters, but also mature aged players from their zone who may have otherwise "slipped through the cracks".

If these entities are not redefined, I reckon it will only be a few years and we will see SU and ECE fielding multiple teams in each division, and a lot more struggling one and two team clubs out in the suburbs who are forfeiting every other week ? I can?t see many of those supporters or volunteers gravitating to the ?super clubs? ? more likely to just drift away from the code!

Absolutely spot on.

[The Student]

Yeah, that's a fair call. I suppose from SU's standpoint they weren't going to look a gift horse in the mouth though.

To my knowledge the Swans have been using top up players from SAFL clubs for years (and still are using SU players) so what you're suggesting isn't that far off what was happening - I'm fairly sure there weren't many people watching the Swans twos go around.

The exposure to NEAFL for Sydney AFL is a great concept that the AFL has stuffed from day one!!

Yes, the combination of the 2 AFL club academies and exposure to the NEAFL competition, will ultimately strengthen the quality of AFL in Sydney.

Most of the players who attend the academies or go to the NEAFL clubs will cycle through fairly quickly, and end up back in lower divisional competition. They are already bringing best practice coaching, training and conditioning regimes to their teams and clubs, a lot of whom have been stuck in a time warp for the past 40 years!

However, the whole premise of 2 Sydney CLUB teams competing in the next level competition was flawed from the outset. It is elitist, and does nothing to maximise support for the NEAFL. It is also detrimental to the structure of Sydney Club AFL.

Firstly, to think that the other clubs could retain ambitious quality players and stay stable and strong or better yet grow, was just fantasy.

This is naturally going to undermine smaller weaker clubs (see Campbelltown as a current example, are their talented u/18s who are being forced to play in a weak first grade side now, going to be able to resist the offers they will receive next season?)

The answer is two teams, equally funded by the AFL, closely affiliated with the Swan's and GWS and their respective zone senior clubs, with qualifying restrictions ensuring that they are made up of the best emerging talent from the clubs in their own pathways.

This could at least then be supported by ALL Sydney Clubs and supporters, and be aspired to by all players as a potential pathway to higher levels.

I would much rather see a 19 y.o. ex Penrith junior, who just missed being drafted, playing for say, ?The GWS Midgets" in the NEAFL, and likewise an ex St George junior with "The Sydney Cygnets" ... you would then see TRUE support for these teams from their grass roots clubs ... be buggered if I'm interested in watching SU play ECE regardless of who is playing for them, but I would go to support and watch the Cygnets smash the Midgets!!!

I'm sure it would also generate interest from the Swans and the Giants, as they will get a chance to monitor not just youngsters, but also mature aged players from their zone who may have otherwise "slipped through the cracks".

If these entities are not redefined, I reckon it will only be a few years and we will see SU and ECE fielding multiple teams in each division, and a lot more struggling one and two team clubs out in the suburbs who are forfeiting every other week ? I can?t see many of those supporters or volunteers gravitating to the ?super clubs? ? more likely to just drift away from the code!

[unconfuseme]

Times have changed, and the Swans' Ressies top up players now come from their academy squad, unless they have rep trials on (which may be this weekend?), and then they invite players from all the senior clubs in their zone. I understand that GWS are doing the same ... but they are still essentially teams made up of players who are on an AFL list, from all over Australia, mixed with some local kids, playing primarily against teams from Canberra ... still doesn't really inspire attention from more than the mums and dads and diehards.

Similarly, I doubt there will be more than family and friends for SU v anyone when they play in Sydney. I was reliably informed that there were more St George fans than SU when they played Belconnen at Henson the other week.

They might get a few locals turn up out of curiosity when they play the Canberra sides away.

But offer up something that ALL of Sydney's AFL fraternity can get involved in ... essentially two representative squads made up of young local guys who's AFL opportunity may have otherwise passed them by ... a true East (Swans) versus West (GWS) rivalry, schedule the games with some thought, and they will come!

... btw, I concede your point that it is not about what's good for the code, but that sadly, SU are only in it for SU ... just like most in the code up here ... speaking of which, anyone else find it humorous that Dale Holmes was being sort for comment on GWS this week?!

[Hole In Bucket]

The major problem and where they have lost traction with the AFL community in Sydney is the selection of clubs. Choosing the Eagles and Syd Uni because they happened to be the 2 best teams at the time the competition commenced is mind numbingly stupid.

It ostracises the other 90% of people in Sydney. They should have started 2 new clubs one being North East comprising Manly, Pennant Hills, North Shore Easts etc and had a team that the juniors in that team wanted to play for. Obviously the other team would be South West with St George, Campbeltown, Wests Penrith etc.

They would then have had some buy in and some interest from all involved in Sydney.

As usual those in charge took the easy option that will all fall over from lack of interest within 5 years.

[Pekay]

Agreed. I'd go and watch a combined Sydney team every day of the week. Not so much for SHEagles, certainly not for the Students unless I was close to a ground. Little affiliation with either.

[Norris Lurker]

I can understand why they went with existing clubs rather than forming new ?rep? teams. When they?re playing established Canberra clubs most weeks, it gives them a club feel rather than being part of some plastic franchise. Also it meant there was a pre-existing volunteer network for the tasks that need to be done behind the scenes and on game day; which new teams set up from scratch would struggle to attract.

I was thinking some more about the idea I mentioned before of playing off for a NEAFL place and promotion/relegation and have come up with some form of framework. These ideas are mine, and not part of any club or league proposal.
I would wait three years before introducing promotion/relegation; I believe SHE and SU currently have 3-year licenses. After their license period expires, or if the NEAFL ever decide to admit a third Sydney club, my idea for how a team could enter the NEAFL would be that they would have to go through a four-stage process.
1. Before the season starts, the club would have to apply to enter the NEAFL the following season. So a club wishing the enter the NEAFL for 2016 would have to apply before the 2015 season commenced. During the course of the year, the AFL would need to judge the application, based on various criteria of finances, facilities etc ? a club that failed to convince the AFL through their application that they are capable of entering the NEAFL would go no further.
2. To prove themselves capable of running themselves successfully, a threshold of Club of the Year points would need to be reached during the year. A club that failed to reach that threshold would go no further.
3. To prove themselves competitive on the field, the club would need to win the Premier Division premiership. An application would be unsuccessful if the club did not win Premier Division.
4. Only if a club has achieved stages 1-3 would stage 4 happen. The club that wins Premier Division would then play off against the lowest Sydney club in the NEAFL; with the winner getting the NEAFL license for the following season.

SHE and SU are the incumbents, any other club would need to go through all four stages to be able to knock them off.

[Tim Freedman]

Some great ideas there Norris and in principle it looks ok.

Just a few questions:
1) What if SHE & SU finished 1st & 2nd that year in the NEAFL or even both in the Top 5. Surely they wouldnt be at risk of being relegated?

2) What if SHE or SU won the premier division flag in the SAFL in 3 years time? (never say never) What happens then?

[unconfuseme]

Those 2 points of Tim's alone make the concept of promotion and relegation impossible.

Surely after 3 years of virtually zero interest in the NEAFL from 90% of Sydney's AFL fraternity, they will have no alternative than to change to a rep format!

... mind you, there is probably no chance that they will break from "tradition" and actually consult with anyone who is interested or concerned about the code

And don't worry about the infrastructure needed to set up 2 non-club sides ... there are more than enough mercenaries in and outside of Sydney to ensure that would be covered easily.