Is Premier Division a lower standard now ?

[justabaraker]

I'd be interested to get some thoughts on how PD is travelling.

There seem to be a whole lot of young skinny kids playing, and our comp doesn't seem to be very "physical" nowadays.
I can think back to the Balmain (Tigers !!) back-to-back premiership team and they were big strong guys. And remember Ron Thomas's Wests teams with the Lenton's, Eckersley, Kirk and so on ? They were big intimidating guys too who knew how to impose themselves on a game.
And, wow, what about the Army guys who filled the ranks at Campbelltown 15 years ago ?

Now, the bodies don't seem to be as developed, the hits aren't as hard.

How would a good PD team now (say, last year's Bulldogs) go against a winning team from a few years ago ?

And where are the strong men now ? McAlister is one, Gus is another but the list is a bit light on after that.

[sunnysideup]

Yes most definitely weaker.
Last years side would not make the finals 15 years ago.
Apart from size the skill level is somewhat lower and depth is quite shallow.
Ofcourse there are players in each side who are good enough to play in other leagues and with/against the sides you mention.
However, most of the socalled names (besides Gus who was obviously still at retirement age 15 years ago and is of the old school) that run around were only 2nd div players interstate at best.

[Pekay]

Even the Army blokes these days are leaner and more tuned for endurance rather than up front toughness. Your typical SpecOps soldier isn't really a monster these days, with Ben Roberts-Smioth being a clear exception to that.

I haven't had a great deal of exposure to SFL or Prems as it is called now, but I remember seeing Campbelltown in their pioneering days when they went to the ACTAFL, my god they were terrifying to watch. Skilful and brutal in equal measures. Footy has changed.

[tara]

Even the Army blokes these days are leaner and more tuned for endurance rather than up front toughness. Your typical SpecOps soldier isn't really a monster these days, with Ben Roberts-Smioth being a clear exception to that.
.

You sure? Most of the special ops guys I know are pretty big physically even those short of stature and I know a few that are monsters based on your above description.

[Pekay]

You sure? Most of the special ops guys I know are pretty big physically even those short of stature and I know a few that are monsters based on your above description.

True, you'd know better than I, but blokes I know in those roles are of course strong as hell, but aren't your 'angriffs' of the expected size. Many I just know the scrawny ones.

[BIGSHOW]

You sure? Most of the special ops guys I know are pretty big physically even those short of stature and I know a few that are monsters based on your above description.

Mate the game has evolved to the point of the 120kg full forward and ruckman can't compete ,with the reduced centre circle it's a two step jump which killed the bigger bloke,and the tussle at boundaries and marking contests has been reduced to free kicks.It has become more of a endurance game now just look at Mumford how he is evolving.

[Tim Freedman]

I have only been in Sydney for 7 years and involved in premier division throughout this time and in my opinion the "standard" of football at the top end has improved dramatically. However, there is still a very large gap between the top 5 and the rest. This is the main issue in Sydney football and not how many muscles players have today compared to 15 years ago. Last years UniNSW were a very impressive outfit and are brilliantly coached by McAlister.

You only need to look at the body shapes in the elite competition to understand the evolution of AFL. Many players in the AFL have had to change their body shape over the last 3-5 years to keep up with the modern game.

[justabaraker]

I have only been in Sydney for 7 years and involved in premier division throughout this time and in my opinion the "standard" of football at the top end has improved dramatically. However, there is still a very large gap between the top 5 and the rest. This is the main issue in Sydney football and not how many muscles players have today compared to 15 years ago. Last years UniNSW were a very impressive outfit and are brilliantly coached by McAlister.

You only need to look at the body shapes in the elite competition to understand the evolution of AFL. Many players in the AFL have had to change their body shape over the last 3-5 years to keep up with the modern game.

Yes, guys in the AFL have had to change their body shape, but they still have mighty upper body strength. And that gives them confidence to crash into packs.
Seems to me that most of our PD players are just plain skinny so they avoid tackling and bumping. It's the style of junior footy, but you'd hope that they get a bit more aggressive as they mature, don't you ?

Interesting that you say the standard has improved dramatically over the past few years - I thought it had gotten worse but there's no way of measuring, so I take your point.

Yes I agree that UNSW last year were impressive and that was because they took the game on with aggression and confidence.

Compared to SydUni last year in the NEAFL who looked (again I say), too young and skinny. Haven't seen them yet this year but I expect they will have bulked up a bit.

Finally, love watching Luffy go around, and he is a strong body, but I reckon if PD was a strong comp then he wouldn't have been as dominant as he has been.

[justabaraker]

You only need to look at the body shapes in the elite competition to understand the evolution of AFL. Many players in the AFL have had to change their body shape over the last 3-5 years to keep up with the modern game.

Funny you say that TimF - I've occasionally stood next to an AFL player and I've noticed that they are quite slim as you say...Swans players like Jarred Crouch, Jed Lamb, Armstrong. But, hey, they're all power aren't they ? I'm a fatty and I still feel like a wimp next to guys like that.
Maybe it's the sunlamps that they use at their gyms !!

[chatovadafloor]

Would easts of last season beat the eagles of the 3 seasons prior?

[Jupiter]

Not even close, and I disagree with the comp having improved, its weaker albeit it has more young local talent in it every year which is great. With the limited talent pool in Sydney how can the comp be stronger when you have two teams out of the comp playing NEAFL from week to week (the nucleus of their sides are ex Prem players not all new imports of some sort) - I realise its not a precise exercise re: effect of NEAFL but a few players have moved clubs to try to play NEAFL and you'd have to think that a solid proportion of the current East Coast and SU senior sides would be playing Prems if their club wasn't in the NEAFL. My worry is with the NEAFL and all of the elite squads and the tops up to 2 AFL sides etc the prem comp will basically be the former SFA very soon. I have no personal problem with that and I like seeing the Bats and Manly and whoever else progress but I think its not the vision for Sydney footy which in my view ought to be make Prem Div get stronger and stronger, not dillute it.

[justabaraker]

Not even close, and I disagree with the comp having improved, its weaker albeit it has more young local talent in it every year which is great. With the limited talent pool in Sydney how can the comp be stronger when you have two teams out of the comp playing NEAFL from week to week (the nucleus of their sides are ex Prem players not all new imports of some sort) - I realise its not a precise exercise re: effect of NEAFL but a few players have moved clubs to try to play NEAFL and you'd have to think that a solid proportion of the current East Coast and SU senior sides would be playing Prems if their club wasn't in the NEAFL. My worry is with the NEAFL and all of the elite squads and the tops up to 2 AFL sides etc the prem comp will basically be the former SFA very soon. I have no personal problem with that and I like seeing the Bats and Manly and whoever else progress but I think its not the vision for Sydney footy which in my view ought to be make Prem Div get stronger and stronger, not dillute it.

So some of the best are now playing NEAFL, some more of the best are top-ups, and what comes in is the young local talent (skinny young kids !) Therefore the standard is bound to fall. Most likely true. Plus the ambitious country zone kids who use our SFL to audition for AFL (like Naismith and Joey Redfern)
What we had in the past was quality country and interstate players coming to Sydney (maybe playing in return for a job, or transferred up here with work)....guys in the mid-20s with a few pre-seasons behind them. We don't seem to get them now (apart from McAlister). And, like Jupiter said, if PD becomes lower standard then it will be harder to attract those experienced players - they'll go to NEAFL instead.
When you read Tom Harley's greeting from last week, it's pretty obvious that grassroots footy is not a big priority for the AFL - we are down there with Auskick as a talent quest to support the Swans and GIants.

[Sterling Cooper]

I'd challenge that last years UNSWES side was as right up there with any of ECE's best Premier Division sides (22 players actually fielded, not the squad or club) over the past decade, with all respect to ECE, however ECE are a better club overall at this point given their consistency over a number of years, their depth, the wide variety of talent and what they have grown to become. Hats off to them.

Bit in relation to this thread, to suggest that last years Premiers were a far weaker side is simply not correct. I would definitely agree the overall competition has dramatically decreased and the quality of players who claim to be PD players has greatly reduced. But in regards to last years premiers, they are a quality line up that certainly are worth acknowledging as maintaining the standard of the comp in comparison to anything we've seen over the past 15 years.

In relation to UNSWES;

- Rampe now a 1st grade AFL player, all Australian, player of state carnival, NSW representative
- McAlister ACT representative footballer, ACTAFL premiership player
- Plant former ACT rep, NSW selected rep, SANFL player
- Collett NSW representative
- Tagliablue NSW representative, now with VFL club

I believe their greatest strength was their spread and eveness of their talent beyond just those outlined above across the whole 22.

Most impressive was that many of the premiership players were those same players from their 2011 side that finished 8th.

Hats off to McAlister for what he has done to that club in his first year as a senior coach, no doubt an impressive coach with a big future in the game at much higher levels.

[justabaraker]

Hats off to McAlister for what he has done to that club in his first year as a senior coach, no doubt an impressive coach with a big future in the game at much higher levels.

Perhaps it was the on-field coaching that got the Bulldogs over the line last year...who can forget that nuggetty defender with his Hannibal Lecter mask, organising the troops in that amazing wall in the back half. We don't get a lot of playing coaches do we ?
As I think about it, perhaps it's the on-field leadership that's lacking, though I can think of a few...Hudson, Kenny E-C, Declan Donohue to start with - trouble is that they can only 'lead' when there are capable cattle to follow.
Sterling, your Advertising Agency is going well with Don (not Donald !!) as the leader because you're heading to the point of saying that last year's Bulldogs had the combo of a great on-field leader and some qualified troops. And some depth under that.

Maybe that's the required mix.

[Tim Freedman]

I always find it ammusing when people try and compare premiership sides over the years. It's irrellevant really because you will never really know as those exact sides never played each other. Think comparing Brisbane to Geelong. Hawthorn of the 80s to Brisbane of the early 2000s. Essendon of the late 90s to Brisbane etc. The list goes on and on. It's good pub conversation though.

I have a biased opinion on the ECE sides and spend plenty of time trying to work out which ECE side was better throughout that threepeat. I always come back to the 2009 side simply because I played in that one. If UniNSW can win three in a row then they will deserve to be compared to that era of ECE sides. However as I said, having watched them last year they were a very impressive outfit and very well coached.

And I stand by my statement that the strength of the Top 5 sides over the last few years has improved. However the sides outside the 5 have dropped off. It just depends on how you judge the strength and depth of the competition.

And finally, if you dont think that some clubs are picking up very strong interstate players this year then you simply dont know what you are talking about. Henry Mason at UniNSW is a gun and will be one of the best (if not THE best) in the comp. Jared Shattock is playing at North Shore and again will be one of the best in the league. Matt Edwins is back at C'Town, Jack Lynch at Manly. UniNSW have picked up a few players from ACT which will strengthen them. UTS a few from the SANFL. The list goes on and on.

Granted taking two sides out of the Sydney AFL and putting them into the NEAFL takes some players out of the comp but what I can tell you is that half of our NEAFL list would be playing in Canberra or other states if the opportunity of playing NEAFL in Sydney wasn't available. We wouldn't have Buchanan, Stubbs, Krueger, Dragicevic, Pollock, Bradley, Bonney, Reed, Garlick and Young just to name a few new players who have come to the club for NEAFL. There are more. We may also have lost a few players to interstate like we did in the past as well. Sydney Uni would be in the same boat I am tipping with Malcolm Lynch and a few more that they may not have got if they were still in Prem div.