A tale of 2 Clubs and the future of AFL in Sydney

[Luke Shannon]

Have always loved Trumper. Played a rep game there in Under 13s and Sydney FL 19s played Assumption College in a curtain raiser which will always stick out in my mind.

Just checked the Div 5 draw, no Waverley this year, bugger it.

If all five Bats senior teams are playing a home round then the top two or three teams play at Waverley while the lower division teams play at Trumper.

I believe that the Bats Premier Division Team gets to play two games at Trumper each year. This Saturday the Bats Premier Division side plays Sydney Uni at Trumper. What a game!

All natural observers should leave the car at home and catch the train to Edgecliffe station. Enjoy some beers in that beautiful old stand and then party on to Bats Cave at "The Royal Oak Hotel" in Double Bay. Sometimes the Prime Minister will skull a beer with the Bats players.

Pekay, have you ever run off Thainy and delivered to your full forward from full back? It's possible at Trumper. There is this breeze that comes over the Edgecliffe Hill and leads to monster kicks going towards the city end.

[Pekay]

If all five Bats senior teams are playing a home round then the top two or three teams play at Waverley while the lower division teams play at Trumper.

I believe that the Bats Premier Division Team gets to play two games at Trumper each year. This Saturday the Bats Premier Division side plays Sydney Uni at Trumper. What a game!

All natural observers should leave the car at home and catch the train to Edgecliffe station. Enjoy some beers in that beautiful old stand and then party on to Bats Cave at "The Royal Oak Hotel" in Double Bay. Sometimes the Prime Minister will skull a beer with the Bats players.

Pekay, have you ever run off Thainy and delivered to your full forward from full back? It's possible at Trumper. There is this breeze that comes over the Edgecliffe Hill and leads to monster kicks going towards the city end.

No, I was too busy wiping his Belt Grip and Vaseline collection (smeared on his guernsey) across his face.

[saviour01]

This Saturday the Bats Premier Division side plays Sydney Uni at Trumper. What a game!

Last years 5th v 6th. Sounds amazing.

[Luke Shannon]

Luke - realise you are new to the forum but can @@@@ off with your continual referencing back the Bats being the best footy club on the planet. Why not start your own thread entitled that and wait for responses.

If I was moving from Adelaide to Sydney the Bats would be my first choice as a club. But from a Sydney view you have no heart / culture because your full list of 150 players turns over every 5 years. You club is like that good looking girl you drunkenly hooked up with on holidays...... fun for the night but was never going anywhere.

Back to the topic that started this thread the growth in Sydney local clubs this year, particularly St George but not East Coast. The future for Sydney AFL clubs looks like a minimum of 4 teams. What is the top end numbers of teams a club can support - 6, 7 or 8 teams?

I've read Tom that you started the Saints 4th division team. I've read reports that the Saints 4th division team and the Bats fought out a classic Sydney AFL game last Sunday. Apparently the conditions were hot and oppressive.

The Bats were able to run down a four goal lead to the Saints to win by two goals. You say that the Bats have no heart or culture. I think being able to come back from four goals down on that huge oval in hot conditions shows a lot of heart.

What should also be noted was that the 4th Division Bats side was effectively the Bats 4th grade side while we beat St Georges effective 3rd grade side. There is plenty of heart in the Bats club.

The forum talks about the Saints being a powerhouse due to increasing lower level participation. What about Sydney Uni who field 6 adult sides while the Bats field 5 adult sides. Are these clubs not powerhouses.

Tom, if the Bats win a Premier Division title while maintaining 5 or 6 adults team, will you give them some credit?

[Tim Freedman]

Its is interesting to see St George emerge as one of the powerhouse clubs of the Sydney AFL.

While the Saints have always been a strong club in the under 19s and Prems, they have been missing in the middle divisions. With the addition of the Div 4 team and the second under 19s they are following the lead of the other local clubs of Norths, Penno, ES/UNSW in developing large local clubs. While its only early days these clubs are the top in Prems (North & Saints), 3rd in Div 2 (ES/ UNSW), top in Div 3 (Penno), top in Div 4 (Norths), 2nd in Div 5 (Penno), top in both under 19s (Saints). Developing large, strong, local clubs looks to be the model for success in Sydney footy.

Compare this to the Eagles. While, probably, they will again be the best team in Prems, they are bottom in Div 1, bottom in Div 3 and equal bottom in the under 19s. The East Coast committee did a great job rescuing the Premier Division club after the NEAFL experience, but you have to think they have taken a short term, Prems focused only, view. From what I hear they continue to pay their Premier Division players, yes less than the NEAFL days but they do pay them.

You would have to think that for long term success and a sustainable club the East Coast committee would have been better focusing on improving the relationships with local clubs, and improving the Under 19 / lower Division coaching support. As the Premier Division team ages, you have to think where will East Coast be in 5 years?

I am looking forward to Round 5 when the Saints play East Coast, and for the long term I would prefer to be in the Saints shoes than the Eagles.

What are your thoughts?

Tom Wills - Some of your comments are a fair way off the mark. ECE certainly engages heavily with our local junior clubs particularly Kellyville & Baulko. Some of our players coach junior teams and we run a junior academy for 10 weeks during the season with over 120 local juniors participating. We attend functions and presentations days and put on a big day during the year for the juniors to be a part of our Prem div team. They come to the pre match, run out with the players and play during half time. If we are lucky enough to win they all stand in the middle of the circle to sing the song like a new player would. Our players also attend junior training sessions throughout the year. Not sure there is more we can do to be honest and I am sure if you talk to the junior clubs they would give you good feedback. I should know as I am involved in both.

You also make a statement that ECE still pay players? I was unaware that this was a crime and I'm not convinced that this is relevant to your post? But since you are comparing ECE to St.George (I'm not) then I can absolutely guarantee you that the Saints also pay some players. I don't have an issue with it and they have done a great job recruiting players to strengthen their list. Plenty of clubs pay their players although UTS probably get paid by their players so they can be part of the great culture that Luke Shannon continues to point out.

In my experience, football clubs go in cycles. In 2012 ECE U18s won the flag after playing in 4 or 5 grand finals in a row. Prior to that they also had 2nd x U18s team but one fell away due to lack of numbers. The U18s coach (Peter Steer) then stepped up into senior football and handed over the reins to someone else. Since that we have seen a drop off in numbers and talent however that also co-incides with a drop off in local junior club numbers. Both Kellyville & Baulko are now running combined / joint venture junior teams including the U17s this year which co-incidentally is coached by a current ECE senior player. For whatever reason numbers in our normal development / recruitment area are dwindling at the U17 age bracket. However underneath that age group the numbers are getting stronger so we are hopeful that this will translate into a stronger future for our U19s on the back of the work we are doing with the junior clubs.

In regards to our senior teams. We are also working hard on strengthening all of them. Despite what you or others may think, we have a club first mentality and we are not focused on any one team with the exception of our 19s. When we went into the NEAFL we lost a lot of players to other clubs because they wanted to play in a senior team with less commitment required. In fact we probably helped Blacktown Magic get off the ground more than any other club!

This year we applied to the AFL to drop our div 3 team down to a lower division because we recognized where we were at. That request was rejected. Our Div 1 teams results will fluctuate based on our injury and unavailability list which is currently very high for this time of year. Acknowledge that most clubs have the same issues.

In regards to Round 5. It should be a great day for Sydney football. As will Round 3 when we play North Shore and Round 4 when we play Manly. And so on and so on. We don't take any game more seriously than the next and we certainly don't place any higher value on any game until finals time. I'm certain Mudgey isn't thinking any differently.

[saviour01]

I've read Tom that you started the Saints 4th division team. I've read reports that the Saints 4th division team and the Bats fought out a classic Sydney AFL game last Sunday. Apparently the conditions were hot and oppressive.

The Bats were able to run down a four goal lead to the Saints to win by two goals. You say that the Bats have no heart or culture. I think being able to come back from four goals down on that huge oval in hot conditions shows a lot of heart.

What should also be noted was that the 4th Division Bats side was effectively the Bats 4th grade side while we beat St Georges effective 3rd grade side. There is plenty of heart in the Bats club.

The forum talks about the Saints being a powerhouse due to increasing lower level participation. What about Sydney Uni who field 6 adult sides while the Bats field 5 adult sides. Are these clubs not powerhouses.

Tom, if the Bats win a Premier Division title while maintaining 5 or 6 adults team, will you give them some credit?

You've got the wrong Tom.

[tara]

This year we applied to the AFL to drop our div 3 team down to a lower division because we recognized where we were at. That request was rejected. .

You can probably blame UTS for this one after last years farce

[Postie]

Like Pekay i have always loved Trumper - nearly as much as Olds
Three reasons
u/19 G/F 1973 St George 16.9=105 Southern Districts 11.8=74
U/19 G/F 1974 St George 12.10=82 Southern Districts 10.13=73
Reserves 1975 St George 13.15=93 East Sydney 5.10=40

[cartman48]

Trumper was great - the only ground I was ever "fit" enough to play on.....

[andreww1]

.

You also make a statement that ECE still pay players? I was unaware that this was a crime and I'm not convinced that this is relevant to your post? But since you are comparing ECE to St.George (I'm not) then I can absolutely guarantee you that the Saints also pay some players. I don't have an issue with it and they have done a great job recruiting players to strengthen their list. Plenty of clubs pay their players although UTS probably get paid by their players so they can be part of the great culture that Luke Shannon continues to point out.
.

Hi Tim, as VP at St. George I need to correct you on your comment about the Saints paying players. We definitely do not pay any players.

We don't believe it suits the culture that we want to achieve and we like to operate in the black.

But whatever your source of information is it is 100% incorrect about player payment at St. George.

[shearer]

Postie, My old man would of been your coach then.

Been awhile since I've had a read of RWO but still the usual clubs like ECE are copping it.On topic and this is coming from an Ex Saints player/coach, I don't think you can compare the records of ECE & Saints, Saints haven't won a senior comp since 93 while ECE totally dominated the comp until they went to NEAFL.

Things go in cycles, I started at Saints in 89 and Campbelltown were dominant along with Norths, then came Sydney Uni in the early 90's, Wests mid 90's, Balmain & CTown late 90's. Norths, Penno & ECE all shared the spoils in the 2000's.

It's great that Saints have got those extra two teams but I hope it's sustainable and they can win the one that counts, 1st grade.

[Seagull]

No, I was too busy wiping his Belt Grip and Vaseline collection (smeared on his guernsey) across his face.

Gold!

[unconfuseme]

Luke - realise you are new to the forum but can @@@@ off with your continual referencing back the Bats being the best footy club on the planet. Why not start your own thread entitled that and wait for responses.

If I was moving from Adelaide to Sydney the Bats would be my first choice as a club. But from a Sydney view you have no heart / culture because your full list of 150 players turns over every 5 years. Your club is like that good looking girl you drunkenly hooked up with on holidays...... fun for the night but was never going anywhere.

Back to the topic that started this thread the growth in Sydney local clubs this year, particularly St George but not East Coast. The future for Sydney AFL clubs looks like a minimum of 4 teams. What is the top end numbers of teams a club can support - 6, 7 or 8 teams?

Perfect description and brilliant analogy!

... and Luke Shannon's comments and lack of comprehension of the Sydney AFL culture outside of their insulated Eastern Suburbs "cave", only go to confirm the general opinion that UTS are primarily made up of a bunch of pretentious, blow-in prigs.

His assertion that the Bats are a revelation to the SAFL as the "Yuppie party club" also shows a lack of knowledge. They are nothing new to the Sydney scene, simply filling the void left by Balmain's demise ... a similar culture that was built upon unsustainable lines, but at least they attracted expats who could play as well as they could party.

In saying all of that, "the pseudo students" have their place in the eclectic landscape that makes up SAFL, even if it is bolstering the lower grade comps with numbers.

I hope they are still around and thriving in 10 years time ... and by that time, everyone of them has finally graduated with honors!

[unconfuseme]

Hi Tim, as VP at St. George I need to correct you on your comment about the Saints paying players. We definitely do not pay any players.

We don't believe it suits the culture that we want to achieve and we like to operate in the black.

But whatever your source of information is it is 100% incorrect about player payment at St. George.

Yes, I for one am very interested to hear more "facts" on this one ... I hoping that Tim will be "naming names" and disclosing some well hidden figures from the Dragons financial reports!

... and these players must be on good $'s too, knowing what ECE's were offering to any player in Sydney who could execute a drop punt, when they were entering the NEAFL!

[Luke Shannon]

Perfect description and brilliant analogy!

... and Luke Shannon's comments and lack of comprehension of the Sydney AFL culture outside of their insulated Eastern Suburbs "cave", only go to confirm the general opinion that UTS are primarily made up of a bunch of pretentious, blow-in prigs.

His assertion that the Bats are a revelation to the SAFL as the "Yuppie party club" also shows a lack of knowledge. They are nothing new to the Sydney scene, simply filling the void left by Balmain's demise ... a similar culture that was built upon unsustainable lines, but at least they attracted expats who could play as well as they could party.

In saying all of that, "the pseudo students" have their place in the eclectic landscape that makes up SAFL, even if it is bolstering the lower grade comps with numbers.

I hope they are still around and thriving in 10 years time ... and by that time, everyone of them has finally graduated with honors!

Wow. I'm assuming your default attitude is:

- Any Sydney AFL player that did not come up through the junior Sydney AFL system is a "pretentious blow in prig".

- Any person who lives in the Eastern Suburbs is a pretentious "yuppie".

- Any white collar professional who works in the CBD must be a wanker.

I'm dissapointed that in 2016 people can have such a hard line attitude to a section of the community.

I understand that strong Sydney AFL suburban clubs have an extensive feeder network of juniors that bolsters them. Clubs such as St George, ECE, North Shore, Pennant Hills, Manly and the University of NSW / East Sydney are very much built on the junior network.

The Bats can't build on a junior network. The Easten Suburbs have great numbers at Auskick level. Junior Eastern Suburbs clubs such as Easts, Moore Park Tigers and the Maroubra Saints have very strong Auskick programs. The problem is that once these kids get older they attend private schools who encourage them to play Rugby and force them to play Saturday sport. This decimates football from the U9s and up.

The Bats have attempted to start an U18 team but the AFL have told them that in doing so we would only hurt the junior networks of other clubs such as Easts or Sydney Uni.

Sydney Uni are are in a nice position as they are fed by strong junior clubs such as the Glebe Greyhounds, Newtown Swans, Concord, and Drummoyne.

Without being fed by juniors the Bats rely on Expats from Adelaide, Melbourne, Perth and Ireland, students from UTS and some people from from the East who want to play AFL and want to reunite with the game after doing their time in private schools.

I think the fact that the Bats numbers have always been high demonstrates that we are doing something right. We are engaging people in the game who live in our area.

The Bats from 2001- 2002 were beaten regularly at senior level. In there first three seasons there 3rd grade team still secured two premierships. In 2003 we had Roger Moten come on as senior coach who lifted the onfield standards across the club. We became very competive at senior level and dominated the Sydney AFL amateur division along with Manly, Sydney Uni and to a lesser extend the Southern Sharks.

We then turned our ambition to the premier division and the Bats committee worked tirelessly to find a premier league venue as Trumper was deemed not to have the appropriate size.

The committee worked really hard for two years to secure Waverley Oval as a venue. Having done that we now have a premier division team.

We now have Nick Fosdike as senior coach who is building a stronger premier division outfit. Hopefully the Bats can have a finals run at premier division level.

When it comes to the Bats being "party boys" I don't think we are any different to any other clubs. What is the point of playing amateur sport if not accompanied by a strong social scene. All clubs have there sponsored social pubs and enjoy each other's company. The difference with the Bats is that there social pub is located in close proximity to the desired Sydney party zones of Paddington, Bondi and Kings Cross. I'm sure there are groups of players from suburban clubs who used to get together and jump on a train to party their Saturday night in Kings Cross. The Bats could jump in a 10 minute cab to Kings Cross.

Who should guys who play amateur sport not party hard. All clubs party!

Apologies for taking up people's time. I love my Bats and feel that the Sydney AFL landscape is dismissive of us in many ways. We have come along way and only want to keep improving.