A-League will kill Sydney's D-League.

[Troy G]

Sooner or later questions will be asked about the large lop-sided scorelines being experienced in the SydneyAFL, but the questions must run deeper than the imbalanced scorelines.

Questions about the strategy of expansion of the competition to include Wollongong, whilst Campbelltown, Balmain and St George (to name but three) continue to struggle as they have for years now for facilities, lighting, crowds, marketing, finances etc.

Meanwhile across town...a 10,000 seat stadium is going to be built for someone soon? Have we actually been told yet for whom? The AFL must have known who they were putting in the money for? Can someone step up and thoroughly explain to us all the AFL's vision in what's happening here in Sydney?

Do they know what's happening here in the bigger picture, the AFL and all of us must surely be aware that the Soccer A-League will arrive permanently in August- not such a threat in Melbourne maybe- but how about Sydney and NSW?

How many young former Auskickers in Sydney that up until now millions of dollars each year were thrown at to turn them from rugby league, are now going to simply walk away and follow their mates and become fans of Sydney FC, Central Coast Mariners or Newcastle United Jets and chase a soccer dream.

Parents will tell you that costs, lifestyle and time commitments will mean kids will have to pick just one sport to play each year and remember parents love soccer because they see it as a less harmful contact sport. The AFL can't take any comfort in the fact that Soccer's a summer sport.

If parents don't have to convince their kids so much to think about changing to Soccer as they did previously because there wasn't the attraction of a quality National League, and the kids now see the money the likes of Harry Kewell gets paid and play for Australia in the World Cup, then the battle for their hearts and minds is almost won!

There can only be one way for the AFL to hit back and turn things around in Sydney IMO and not just to the threat from Soccer (although look out if they form the talked about youth league) and that's a quality NSW/ACT State League permanently funded by the about to be discussed television rights and maybe even broadcast by that broadcaster.

Less teams in Sydney playing in a State and ACT wide competition is the only answer as far as I can see to keep AFL in the hunt long term!

In the battle of the codes in Sydney it's the top level of each code that will win out and there's only so much the Sydney Swans will be able to do against SydneyFC.. let alone the Mariners and Jets and League and Union. A State League which must now happen next year (IMO if they are fair dinkum) is the only way that the AFL can do battle from a position of strength. Yet we've heard nothing!

Remember the AFL and Soccer are going to be chasing the same kids and teenagers because of the similiar attributes needed eg. speed, body type, foot skills etc!

Make no mistake about it, if the A-League succeeds as I and the FFA think it will, and nothing changes then this is one of the AFL's last chances to have a clear shot at capturing the AFL players and fans it needs for the future and it could mean trouble down the track for the Sydney Swans as early as next year if it doesn't!

There may be enough SydneyFC's to go around, but what about the real talent coming through short to long term? The Sydney AFL, for the good of the AFL and the Sydney Swans continuing to get home grown recruits, will need to be a B-League very very soon, but it currently comes fourth on the ladder after the Seniors, Reserves and ACTAFL.

[footyhead]

Have you passed this on to the AFL and NSWAFL?

I agree with what you are saying and I also think that the AFL need to put money into sponsoring interschool kids under 18 competitions.

Sydney is the front lines for AFL and they are not paying it the enormous attention and financial commitment it demands.

[shearer]

If the Socceroos(can we still call them that) dont make the 2006 World Cup(which they wont), then the A-League will be the greatest dud in Australian Sporting History.

John O'Neill has acknowledged this and even then i believe the A-League will struggle to be succesful.

The only way a State League would be succesful is if there was major broadcasting deal done to fund the whole infrastructure, but i seriously doubt people will throw millions at setting up production costs to show the North Shore Demons vs Wagga Saints.

How would it rate, i reckon it would be up there with the ratings scored for watching The Tasmanian Ballot Count in a local election.

[footyhead]

Doesn't change the fact that the AFL have big big problems with footy at junior levels, Sydney AFL, schools, ect ect.

They need to set up an elite position at the head of the NSWAFL, pay them a very good salary, attract some smart buisiness person and support them with a decent staff. Bugger all has been done in the last 10-twenty years.

The Swans are not all their is to Sydney football.

AFL must fund the grass roots in Sydney.

[Rod]

Troy G, Footyhead,

While I appreciate and sympathise with your argument about the status of AFL in Sydney, I can't help but think you're making arguments based on very little fact.

After some investigation I have unearthed some cold hard facts regarding AFL in Sydney and NSW. Please bear with me, this could take a while:

1. AFL has been the fastest growing sport in the state since 1997, with 30 674 new players signing up between then and now. Rugby Union with 7000 was second.

2. Since 1997, 11 new local clubs and 80 new Auskick centres have been born in Sydney alone

3. In 1997 there were 2115 registered junior AFL players in Sydney, today there are just on 30,000. So although I'm unaware of how much money has been thrown specifically at grassroots footy in Sydney by the AFL footyhead, these figures suggest there's plenty being done about it.

4. These stats have been copied from the Sydney AFL website and detail junior AFL development just in the Illawarra region:
"Junior AFL development in the Illawarra region has been very strong in recent years as follows:
* AUSKICK (5-12 years) participation has increased by almost 100% since 2001 from 1077 players to 2123 players this season
* The number of junior and youth teams has increased by almost 50% in the same period from 30 teams to 43 teams
* The number of junior and youth club players has increased by around 40% between 2001 and 2004

5. Footyhead you said that "They (NSWAFL) need to set up an elite position at the head of the NSWAFL, pay them a very good salary, attract some smart buisiness person..."
That elite position was the Chief Executive of the NSW/ACTAFL. I'm not sure of his salary, but he has an annual budget of $7.3 million (according to the Sydney Morning Herald on June 26 2004). And in 2004, the NSW/ACTAFL employed that smart business person. His name is Dale Holmes. Prior to his appointment at NSW/ACT AFL he was General Manager of adviser solutions at MLC.

6. You've also said "Bugger all has been done in the last 10-twenty years."
I found out something that suggests otherwise.
In 1998, a group of concerned fathers who had similar passions and dreams for the success of AFL in NSW that you and Troy G have got together and did something about it. They formed the NSW/ACT AFL Task Force off there own bat, and over 6 months they voluntarily investigated every facet of football operations in NSW and the ACT. At the end of their investigations they submitted their findings and recommendations to Wayne Jackson at the National AFL. Jackson accepted a great majority of these recommendations, and the NSW/ACT AFL commission was formed. It is as a direct result of the findings and recommendations of this commission that the stats listed above are so impressive.
Now regardless of what you think about some of the decisions this commission has made since it's inception, surely you can't argue that "bugger all has been done"?

7. You also said that you "think that the AFL need to put money into sponsoring interschool kids under 18 competitions"
You may then be surprised to know that the Paul Kelly Cup is Australia's (not just the states, the entire Country's) biggest primary school sports competition. I think the AFL are doing well here for an interschool kids U/18 competition.

8. Troy - in regards to the Blacktown development you asked "Have we actually been told yet for whom (it is being built)?" Refer to this news article from the Blacktown Olympic Park website: http://www.blacktownolympicpark.com....nstanceId=6300 - It shoud answer your questions.

As for your soccer argument Troy I'm sure the NSW/ACT AFL, like the National AFL and all other codes for that matter, will be watching with great interest to see how the A-League goes. However I think for the first time in a long time AFL in this State has some direction and purpose about it and if we can show some patience, the thousands of kids who have fallen in love with AFL since the big NSW push since the Swans 96 GF appearance will learn to just love footy and the Sydney AFL will flourish. I think we're just on the verge of seeing these kids come through the ranks. Look at Kieran Jack at Pennant Hills. His father Garry was one of Australia's greatest Rugby League full backs and Kieren used to play Rugby League himself and was more than likely headed down that path until an Aussie Rules clinic came through his school, he liked it, and one of his mates told him to try it out. So he did. The rest, as they say, is history.

I am as keen as anyone else to see AFL in Sydney grow and become etched in hearts and minds, and I have similar questions to those that you guys have voiced here. So before making any comment I went and found the answers to those questions, and I was very encouraged with where the sport is headed here. I don't believe there is a quick fix answer. A state league, although devastatingly enticing, would cost a lot of money that I think would be better spent in other places.

I think things are on the right track, and in time the seeds sown will grow and flourish. As Kevin Costner was told - "If you build it, they will come." Well I think it's already been built, and they are definitely coming.

[Troy G]

My overall main concern expressed was about the very near future and how the Sydney sports landscape is about to change in a major way and my hope that the AFL in NSW and the Swans are prepared for the increased competition.

So Rod you give us stats (and we know they never lie!) about what's been done in the past?

Given that my concerns are a heads-up about the major change that's going to occur in Sydney in August and next year and beyond- these stats frankly are meaningless - unless you have these 5-12year olds signed to 15-20 year contracts!!

We'll all have a some idea by the end of next year, after the first season of the A-League (when maybe BTW three NSW teams might make the semi-finals or maybe even two in the GF) and after the Soccer World Cup -not a bad very first season platform to build from- whether all those 30,000 5-12 year olds and older have remained rock solid!

[Lensman]

Rod,

You are over qualified to be posting on this website. Please do not bring facts to this forum - you may scare away people such as Troy G.

Your time could be better spent actually doing something for our sport (which no doubt you are). Please leave the uninformed dribble to those who do it best.

Keep up the good work.

[Coastal Boy]

In my opinion the secret to AFL success in NSW is to have the AFL an intergral part of school sport. When there is a weekend competition which involves 8-12 private schools I know AFL is taking hold. At the moment soccer and basketball are the leading sports and many schools now require students to play the sport that is offered at their school on the weekends. In my opinion the AFL should throw money at schools thru free computers etc if they offer AFL as a sport. Only then will any real rivalry to the other codes be possible.

The fact Campbelltown have gone sour is a clear indication of the tender hold we have. I heard (12 months ago) the juniors(8-16yo) were decimated when the local rugby league offered free rego and jersey and the local AFL competition was hit like a sledge hammer. The senior team must also be in trouble with their results of the past 2 years. Remember this was the powerhouse team which went to the ACTAFL during the 90s.

The Sydney AFL league is still predominantly an inner city competition with UNSW, Balmain, Wests and Norths; and St George, Pennant Hills and ECE still within 15km. Only Campbelltown and the Gong are in the right areas for broadbased competition. It must be a problem that the heart of Sydney from Homebush to the Mountains is without a team in the Premier league. If no team in this area from First division has put their hand up for promotion to Premier league, what makes anyone think putting a new side at Blacktown will generate the sponsorship and leadership to be a success?

[Rod]

Troy I'm not sure you fully understood the underlying meaning behind those stats I presented.
Most of those stats date back to 1997, which is now 8 years ago. In those 8 years the numbers of kids playing Aussie Rules has exploded. Now lets say that I was 12 years old in say 2000 when AFL had started to gain momentum in Sydney. I am now 17 years old and am just starting to break into senior footy - along with 100's of other kids who started playing footy at the same time as I did.
Had nothing been done in 98 to get those junior stats on the increase, I would have been perhaps one of 10 players coming into senior footy in Sydney. Do you see my point?
There is no quick fix in this situation. The people that started the commission in 98 (of which I'm not one I'll just state for the record - I've just done a bit of research and asked some questions of people who were qualified to answer) had the vision to realise that the only way to improve the senior Sydney AFL comp was to greatly broaden the depth of players coming through from a junior level. They have achieved this aim, and the rewards are only now starting to be seen (like the Kieren Jack example). We are starting to see genuinely good Sydney born and bred footballers playing in the Sydney AFL to complement the top-class imports like Templeton and Seebeck and Spencer and Pech etc.
I don't think I've seen in any of your postings one positive comment about the Sydney AFL Troy, and I'm not asking you to heap praise on them now, but can you at least see what they're trying to achieve and acknowledge that they do - whether you agree with it or not - have a rational strategy?

[Coastal Boy]

In response to statistics suggesting the junior situation is on the up and up why have teams including Norwest Jets, St Clair, Penrith and Campbelltown(to name a few) in the developing areas of Sydney taken backward steps in their development? Also UNSW did not enter a team in the First Division this year.

Also, in the quickest growing area in NSW of the Central Coast, there was no local under 16s competition and the U18s was a shamble last year.

The U18s premier league is very lopsided. This dosent indicate to me a strong base of juniors pushing through the system at all.

To me this is examples of the sport going in the wrong direction in the past few years. Where are all these Auskick juniors since 1996?

[Rod]

Coastal Boy,

The stats I got were generic Sydney stats and weren't broken up into specific areas of Sydney (except for the Illawarra stats). Let me see if I can find anything out about the questions you asked though. In fact why don't you see if you can find answers and let the rest of us know? Go to the Sydney AFL website and then to the "Inside the League" menu for contact details. Would be interesting to hear what the story is with those areas you mentioned.

Regarding the UNSW decision not to field a team in First Division, this was a reflection of players levels of committment at the club, and was a decision made solely by the club, not the NSWAFL. As per the article on the Sydney AFL site when the decision was announced: "The reason behind the decision, was a feeling that the number of players that were committed to playing at a level where training 2 nights a week was required to be competitive, was limited to a number which could only supply 2 senior teams." And on the UNSW web page they also stated their reason for the change: "Players will play and train together, bringing back the CLUB feel on matchdays, and at the clubhouse after the game!! With six sides we are still the biggest club in Sydney footy."

And on the U/18 premier division being lop-sided indicating a lack of strong juniors, I don't know that I'd agree with that. I don't think the strategy the NSW AFL took with the 18's this year was a good one, but there have, and always will be lop-sided scores in junior footy in any state. I think it's just been amplified here due to a silly decision to pit strong established teams against new, developing teams. I don't know that lopsided scores is an argument for a lack of juniors coming through.

[footyhead]

Shock horror, I could be wrong!

Seriously though the development of AFL in Sydney does not seem to be comprehensive. It seems patchy. The stats say the game is growing, that maybe a product purely of TV exposure and run on of Auskick.
I feel we should be further ahead than we are. The game it's self has proved very addictive in every market it has entered. The AFL and the NSWAFL cannot take all the credit for the inherient charms of the game it'self!
I rang up the NSWAFL a couple of years ago and the response I got to a couple of suggestions was tainted with a defeatist feeling. (one of the suggestions was to try to encourage more Footy posts in key regions of Sydney). I myself have encountered negativity from local councils about aussie rules development, however, surely a body like the NSWAFL should have a mandate to turn a no into a yes over time, with a comprehensive package of philosophic, monetary and political incentives, along with a long term strategy and never say die spirit.
I have not witnessed these.
In fact I think the AFL have misunderstood the enormity of the task and have continually but reluctantly modified their commitment and input in Sydney year to year as it has slowly dawned on them that it is necessary and inevitable that they will and must make a complete commitment there.
More reactionary than prescribed seems to be their approach. More improvisational than scientific.
This along with the horror reports we heard about the poorly publicized preseason Swans game on the central coast in which the NSWAFL screwed up publicity, but would not let the locals really get involved ( which is not an isolated incident by the way), make me wonder if the NSWAFL are really as "on it" as your statistics would have us believe.
Signed a concerned and involved father.

[Pekay]

now i must be careful with what i say here,as there are certain people that wait to see what ive written in regards to this touchy subject.i believe for Sydney Footy to be viable,(here goes!!) we must scrap all teams and start again,forget tradition and history. these pages are designed for debate,and this will no doubt start a huge one.teams like NorWest Penrith Parra St Clair must all be under one banner,a premier League team and a possible Div2 team(or 2 maybe),Campbelltown and SWS merge,St George and Cronulla,UTS and Mac Uni and Syd Uni and UNSWES bith merge and make 2 uni teams,East Coast and Penno(strong!) North Shore and Manly and Balmain and Wests,Wollongong stand alone as they have a senior comp and full region behind them.this will bring the very best talent onto the field at one time,and the older/lazier blokes can still trot around in a lower division.ive had this in my head since the Jets dropped down(if you want the story on us Coastal PM me ill let you know)and its the only way i can see our game in Sydney competing with the riff-raff.i still cant punctuate so get that up ya-the debate starts now-FEEDBACK

[adnar]

I agree with you to an extent pekay. If anyone reads my northen leauge thread that could be incporporated into this and make it even better.

I think that you will never be able to make clubs merge, what you could do is make higher miminum standards for getting a licence.. Min ammount of $$ and players both in senior and Juniors.

[Rod]

Well footyhead - you've just opened up a pandora's box mentioning local councils!!

While I was checking out stats, I looked specifically at local Sydney councils and AFL. Here's a stat I know off the top of my head:
Since 97, only 19 new grounds have been secured for AFL use from local councils for the 91 new clubs and Auskick centres that have been born over the same time.

This is the other key part of this AFL in NSW debate. Outside parties (such as local councils) just don't care about footy. I believe this has been one of the major reasons that the Blacktown development went ahead, because the NSW AFL finally ran into a council who saw the vision for footy in Sydney and were willing to work WITH the AFL.

At the ECE one of the major reasons they are finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel in regards to the Kellyville development is because an expat Victorian, Martin Tolar, joined the Baulkham Hills Shire Council and explained to the other clr's what footy means to people and was able to help push the development through. I believe there still hasn't been a decision handed down on who will be the tenant of the ground, but it's fairly close.

That's the next (and probably the most difficult) challenge. Getting kids to play the game is one thing as they're reasonably open to trying new things while they're going to school, hence the successful increase in playing numbers. But it's their parents who are the local councillors and decision makers in this world, and they're the ones the NSWAFL need to get at. But unfortunately most of them are as set in there ways for sports other than AFL, as we are set in our ways in our views on AFL.

Bringing these people around is a totally seperate, and much harder problem than getting kids to play the sport in my opinion.

I was speaking to Peter Physick about the problem of facing less than helpful local councils recently, and I think he summed it up perfectly. He told me "I'm not criticising them (local councils), it's just an objective view I've formed. AFL footy doesn't interest them. It's just another sport they need to find a piece of dirt for."