Sydney Football Is A Mess

**tara** · 6 August 2005, 08:50 AM

Your point are all very valid however SFL clubs have on occasion tried to lure young local talent without alot of success. One reason being is the refusal to foster relationships with clubs in Division one. When playing at Bankstown we were supposed to supply STGeorge with up and comers and in return receive those finishing or not up to it. This never happened. We did however receive people from Wests through family ties.

Now at South West Campbelltown tried the same thing. Valentine came and met with us and wanted an allegience of sorts. One where he would have picked up young guys like Danny Saunders his brother Ray and the Krejza brothers George and Jason. However he couldnt give us any sort of guarantee that we would receive anything in return.

Now you tell me what our club had to gain from any of these. Nothing. We would hold onto our players rather than disappear.

Now another problem I know first hand is juniors would love to see the seniors when they train. To develop you juniors you need senior players to be seen to be actively involved with them. The biggest problem however is the times that the juniors train. My working day starts at 8 or earlier and once in a blue moon leave before 630. Not only doest it impact on when I arrive at training it makes it impossible to help out with juniors as well.

I constantly blame the AFL up here for the state that senior footy is in and will continue to do so until I see some sort of workable submission from them that wil take us out of this mire. They need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that there is a problem. You cannot just develop junior footy at the expense of senior competitions. Sure they want a premier league but thats all there going to have soon. Now with the numbers of juniors growing all the time whats going to happen when these kids get to senior age. Will we lose them entirely or is the AFL only interested in developing kids into AFL supporters for the revenue benefits. Cynical I know but probably true.

**Rafters** · 6 August 2005, 09:08 AM

A bit harsh Humphrey with a few comments there. I reckon Oscar will quite rightly correct you on a few things eg moving back to Kellyville, problems with dissident neighbours at Chaz Mclaughlin, good senior administration, Dion Myles one game for the Swans, Goodrem in NSW 18s, leading the way with AFL club alliances with Sydney clubs, Matt Frost as assistant coach at Swans, and the importance of trying to win a comp etc etc. Any club in their right mind would have signed Garner & co if they had the chance.

With respect to Wests throwing the chequebook I would reckon their payroll is less than most clubs ... their 1996 premiership side actually contained alot of local juniors (Freney, Eckers, Holmes, Casey, Urqhuart, etc) and they have Stafford & Bevan in AFL ranks. I know that the Parra connection (Kassems x 4, Crane, Cleary, Goodman) are there for nothing other than the opportunity to play good footy. And they have a licensed club that gives them the right to spend money on the club if they want to. Up in Cairns the payroll is over $150k pa due to each club haing a licensed premises & contributions from the league owned Cazalys.

Unsure how much involvement you have had trying to establish a junior club Humphrey but it is a very difficult task ... made more difficult as kids get older. I think the new rule of each AFL club taking on a sydney youngster will improve things in the next 5-10 years.

Campbelltown are a very proud club & have struggled largely since the unfortunate death of Bob Prenter. They will recover in a few years time.

Wollongong with something like 8 guys playing for NSW u/18s in the past 2 years gives an indication of the quality of their junior efforts ... watching their young senior side on song has been some of the best footy I have witnessed by young ones ... unfortunately consistency needs working on before they challenge for the flag but I believe they are only 2-3 years away from that given the quality off-field administration they have to support them.

**humphrey bear** · 6 August 2005, 10:19 AM

Rafters all of your examples are very valid however many of them convey the point I was trying to get accross.

But isnt a terrible enditement on Sydney footy when a couple of names such as the kassems can be thrown up as an example of postives from each club or that looking from the outside a club such as Campbeltown crumbled as a result of the passing of one man coupled with McLaughlin family scaling back their involvement.

Its not matter of establishing junior clubs as many of them were in place 25 years ago. My point is that the majority of the premier league clubs have done absolutely nothing to foster junior development in their respective areas. Or if they have the results have been woeful in terms of quality and quantity. Last year there wasnt one player drafted from Sydney.

I take your point in regards to Wests last priemiership but you forgot to mention Thomlinson, Partridge, Fiddler, Graham etc who were lured to the club by big Ronny in the mid 90's. However it unfair of me to single Wests out for this as they are not the only club who have had to lure players to be more competitive.

All I am saying is Sydney football has not gone anywhere in 25 years and instead of everybody justifying reasons for why their own club has gone down certain paths, it should be admitted that as a group the development of the code has been right royally screwed up.

I know many of the poeple in the clubs are well intentioned and have worked very hard but the results are absolutely deplorable which is a point that any observer not aligned with any club would come to in 5 minutes analysis.

I also know that many of the clubs have not been aided by some of the directives from the NSWAFL particularly during the "Livy" era but this certainly not absolve the clubs from an enormous portion of the blame.

**stellation** · 6 August 2005, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Rafters
problems with dissident neighbours at Chaz Mclaughlin

I was playing junior footy at B.Hills when we switched from the Masonic school ground to Charles McLaughlin. The local residents were complaining about it before we even moved in there, my father has a cousin that owned one of the houses backing onto the ground- it seemed like they wanted to have the extra sports field but they didn't want people to use it, that was from day one. I remember distinctly the first time I turned up at the ground, after my father explaining the complaints of local residents, and surveying the area and seeing how far away the houses were; it certainly seemed like a storm in a tea cup at the time.

**Oscar** · 6 August 2005, 11:21 PM

Dear Humphrey,

You expected a reply from the East Coast camp and here it is. Even though you have not identified yourself, my name is Peter Physick, President of the Eagles. This message board is not the place to undertake such replies, but I will post just one on the subject. I don?t intend to discuss the rights or wrongs of Auskick numbers etc, but I will defend my Club.

My first question is to ask you which Sydney AFL Premier League Club has junior club connections? Answer. All of them. To my knowledge all have junior development as a priority in their Business Plans. There is a changing of the guard this year in Under 18 football, with Balmain to be congratulated on their great form this season. East Coast will miss out on the four this year and it is entirely possible that both Pennant Hills and North Shore will as well.

Secondly, which Sydney AFL Premier League Club owns and controls a junior club? Answer is none of them. Not even Pennant Hills or St George who you suggest are the only ones to do anything about producing juniors. The last Club to be fully integrated with juniors and seniors was East Coast Eagles when it was the Baulkham Hills Falcons. Back in those days the Club took on board the criticism that even with so many juniors available to it, it still couldn?t win. The available option of having more than one junior club to draw players from was an attractive one, hence the decision was taken to form the Eagles and associate ourselves with West Coast.

It should not be forgotten that at the time of the formation of the Eagles, it was a preferred NSWAFL requirement to align with a national AFL Club and adopt the name of that Club. A Falcon didn?t fit the mould, but an Eagle did. Nor should it be forgotten that Baulkham Hills / East Coast were denied playing at Charles McLaughlin Reserve by the then NSWAFL administration because it was too small. Macquarie Uni became available and we would still be there if the University could accommodate an external tenant.

To propose that ? ?. they refuse to play home games in their local area ?. ? is so out of touch that it suggests your hands must have slipped off the keyboard and under the desk. East Coast would love to be playing back in their heartland and if you kept abreast of local footy matters a bit more intently, then you would know that for the last eight years we have been working with the Baulkham Hills Council to provide us with a home back in the North West to call our own. Next month the Council make their long awaited decision as to who will be the tenants of the facility to be built in Rouse Hill. The fact that East Coast has committed a sum of money in excess of six figures to assist with its construction still might not be enough to convince you.

So we recognised that you can?t win a Premiership with all juniors. What choices did we have then? Maybe one of them was to run the Club on very sound administrative and commercial lines so that it was able to attract corporate sponsors. Sponsors who need to see a valued return on their investment. Sponsors who are happy to be associated with a Club which looks after them and provides facilities where they can be entertained at the football. Alan Davidson Oval does that very nicely, as did Roger Sheeran before that. We give a lot back to our many sponsors but there is some left over to invest in players. Who wouldn?t? The nine juniors who played in First Grade last week against Pennant Hills certainly don?t argue.

I?m not aware which Club you are associated with HBB, but the chances are that it is one of the five who also wanted to secure the ?mercenaries? from St George. The other two Clubs didn?t even know they were available by the way. As Rafters has already said, any club in their right mind would have signed them.

In terms of junior numbers west of Castle Hill ?going to ruin?, then we really should terminate the services of our full time General Manager I suppose. There is not much use in him continuing to run clinics every week at schools and colleges in the North West, taking West Coast personnel to schools and Clubs, umpiring matches when required because the NSWAFL can?t get there, etc etc. I?d be surprised if we weren?t being seen as contributing to the cause.

However you are correct that we probably don?t do enough. It is now time that I and others in the Club close our businesses, deny our families an income and get on the trail of promoting football in Australia?s biggest growth area. Certainly I?m being unreasonably facetious here, but if the AFL itself can?t do it, then how does a Club in the Sydney AFL do it? One possible way is to be associated with a much bigger one like West Coast who do see the merit of being involved in Sydney. Their continued support of our Club should now come to some sort of fruition when the AFL Apprenticeship scheme is introduced. Through East Coast they already have the existing infrastructure at grass roots level to be able to identify the talent who will be offered scholarships and then priority drafted to their Club.

Don?t overlook the fact that the clubs temporarily lose their elite players who have the potential to be drafted. The NSWAFL take them over from age 14 or 15 with inclusion in the Redbacks and then if good enough, subsequent selection in the RAMS. I?m not sure that it is the local senior Club?s fault they are not drafted.

It is not easy running any football club no matter how big or small. I?ve tried for 10 of our 13 years in Senior football (not 25) and hopefully we now have a good balance between development of the code and winning football matches for supporters, members and sponsors.

**humphrey bear** · 7 August 2005, 11:25 AM

Oscar.

That is the type of response I respected from the clubs. I was not trying to single out ECE.

My whole point is that each of the clubs have valid reasons for the paths which they have progressed.

However in your time in Sydney Football you cant tell me the quality of junior or senior football has improved in numbers or quality. Quality in the juniors is easy to quantify by looking at the numbers that have been drafted and that certainly hasnt increased. Quality in seniors is harder to quantify but IMHO the Wests team previously mentioned and the Campletown teams of the early 90's are vastly superior to those playing currently.

In the last 2 decades the media exposure of AFL into Sydney through print and electronic media has increased 30 fold. That means the game is more available to the Sydney public and meant an exponentially increased chance to attract juniors.

So why has AFL in the grass roots in Sydney at best stagnated and more realistically gone backwards.

The premier clubs instead of nashing teeth, pointing and saying not us need to admit there failures and change the way they are collectively operating to arrest the current slide/stagnation.

I understand it as an emotional issue but when looked at objectively it becomes obvious that AFL in Sydney needs to alter its direction to prosper let alone survive.

**Rafters** · 7 August 2005, 06:34 PM

Trying to remember here but I think the current period we are in represents the highest participation levels in senior & under 18 footy in Sydney (based on no of teams in all grades) since 1988-1991 period ... there was a lull in between & the hard work by clubs with business plans are starting to show.

There is a shift in society in general with the availability of volunteers willing to assist with the running of clubs ... one reason is the "unofficial" longer working hours that everyone seems to do coupled with higher costs of living. There are also alot of lazy players out there not willing to raise a finger & leave it to only a handful.

As for the quality of football it is hard for me to go past 1990-1993 era. I do think the level of competition is poorer now than back then across the board but the paradox is that the Sydney rep team appear to be recording better results than that era (are we getting worse at a slower rate than other leagues?).

Around this time of year TV programs such as Sportsworld or Sports Tonight as well as magazines such as Inside Sport will do a feature story on the struggles of bush footy in Victoria Country. It is not just Sydney footy that struggles with operating from year to year.

Succession planning is a big issue for major corporations as much as it is Sydney footy clubs such as Campbelltown ... just look at the angst messrs Murdoch & Packer are having with their conglomerates ... and they can afford to recruit the best!

So what club are you or have been aligned with Humphrey? I notice that your DOB is 1978 so I am wondering if you really know what senior footy was like in Sydney 25 years ago?

PS Fiddles was another Wests junior wasn't he? Also Rotten Ronnie returned to coaching at Melton this year - spoke to him a few months ago & all is well with him. Now there was one coach that gave a decent quarter-time speech!

**Coastal Boy** · 8 August 2005, 08:09 AM

I would like to propose the thought that any team of only Sydney juniors could not compete with much success in the Sydney AFL. Look at any team and many first grade players have played rep level at RAMS or Teal Cup. In my opinion the Sydney AFL is taking players from all over NSW and interstate who are mostly here for Uni or work and as good as our juniors are, there is a lot of good players out who want to play football in Sydney. How many footballers are actually poached from interstate or country NSW who were not coming to Sydney in the first place?????????

**shearer** · 8 August 2005, 08:45 AM

"I would like to propose the thought that any team of only Sydney juniors could not compete with much success in the Sydney AFL."

While St George seniors are currently 6th, the side that nearly beat Pennant Hills yesterday contained 20 local juniors out of a possible 22.

And that has been the case since Garner & co departed. There has been only one game where the team got smashed and in the other games we were more than competitive.

The removal of the rule of 6 players under the age of 23 has meant the landscape of the competition has changed dramatically. The club realises that to be top 2-4 that we have to compliment these juniors with recruits. But we must make sure that we recruit the person and not the player, a mistake the club has made in the past.

P.s. If you have finished with Ryno can you please send him back to us.

**Coastal Boy** · 8 August 2005, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by shearer
[B"While St George seniors are currently 6th, the side that nearly beat Pennant Hills yesterday contained 20 local juniors out of a possible 22."[/B]

Shearer, St George ought to be commended for their continual fostering of junior and senior footy in Sydney. I know quite a few St George boys particularly because I played in the junior comp for a few years.

But the facts are that St George have only won a single premiership in 20-30 years. From memory, the 93 premiership for the Mighty Red and White included great players like Barts, Willow and Tails who were not local juniors. Pennant Hills is another club with a great junior base with an identical record. The reasons for this may be plentiful but there is quite obviously not a strong correlation here between strong juniors and success.

My point is simple. Without players emerging from outside of Sydney the local competition standard would drop quite a bit. Generally I feel it inappropriate to criticise "recruiting" because it has been around in the Sydney AFL for decades and it has a good record of success. It could even aide local talent to reach higher levels. In the same way there's probably lots of good Sydney boys playing all over Australia causing havoc, as Ryno does!!!

**Sanecow** · 8 August 2005, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Oscar
your hands must have slipped off the keyboard and under the desk

Try to keep it dignified.

**shearer** · 9 August 2005, 12:52 PM

Oscar, with regard to the ground at Rouse Hill if you get the go ahead will the club be able to play matches there in 2006.

**Pekay** · 9 August 2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Sanecow
Try to keep it dignified.

good call Oscar, subtle as a sledgehammer-i hope you dont mind,but i'll be coining that phrase.and i reckon you kept it "dignified",about on par with the "free Schappelle Corby in every packet" comment by a previous poster from the Fun Police!

**Sanecow** · 9 August 2005, 01:21 PM

I don't make comments on behalf of a footy club.

Sydney Football Is A Mess

Sydney Football Is A Mess

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