Match thread - Rd 12 v Crows

[Blood Fever]

Bice needs to be persevered with after what he showed earlier in the year. Have doubts about Sheldrick. Hard at it but lacks speed and his kicking is ordinary. Hope I'm wrong.

[crackedactor 01]

Bice needs to be persevered with after what he showed earlier in the year. Have doubts about Sheldrick. Hard at it but lacks speed and his kicking is ordinary. Hope I'm wrong.

Cannot understand the disike for Sheldrick, I thought there was a lot worse players than him.

[liz]

Well, where to start. When an opposition player - Milera - says in a post match interview they could sense from our on ground communication that we’re a bit of a rabble, you know it’s bad.

There’s no doubt our ball movement is horrid but the broken tackles are a sign of the malaise for me. There was a play in the fourth quarter starting on the wing in front of the interchange bench, winding its way diagonally across half forward to the opposite forward pocket, for the Keays goal early in the fourth, when they must have slipped seven or eight tackles. Which means the effort might kind of be there, but it’s not hard, relentless effort.

What’s due to coaching and what’s not is hard to distinguish right now, but if I was Cox there’s probably two things I’d think through. One - he seems to have a bit of a game plan of the week. Early in the season it was a focus on contested ball and better full ground defence. I was cool with that as building good fundamentals and there were signs it was working. But now he often throws up a focus on something different each time. Defensive forwards against GWS (albeit it worked), kick it deep against the Bombers (it didn’t), small forwards last night (it didn’t). Settle the players by sticking to a plan. And the other is make a call on some players, and play them in proper positions. I know injuries and suspensions have made his life hard, but it’s possible.

For example, we wanted to play small forward of the ball last night to keep the ball in f50 and encourage some run. But we start Cleary on the bench and play Adams down there. Huh?

Which brings me to some players. Fair call on Bice. He will be back but he needs a stint in reserves, mainly because his defensive positioning and work is off the mark. But if Bice is alone in paying the price for yesterday, we’ve missed the point.

As players return, the following need to be progressed out of the side for good.

Adams. I never understood his recruitment as an ageing player with a poor injury profile. He lacks the running capacity required for the modern game. Time to move on.

Hamling. Just when we found some spark with four goals to start the third quarter, he gives up two easy goals on Walker. Hoo roo.

Lloyd. I’ve come around to Liz’s view here. At start of second quarter, a ball popped a bit above his head and he bunted it backwards into dangerous space in defence. He’s gotta take the hit. And in his best days, he would. Instead, he pushed the ball back into a goal scoring position. At the subsequent stoppage, Soligo scores.. Five minutes later, simple ground ball, fumble, they clear it forward and Thilthorpe scores the goal on review. To top off his night, with five minutes left in the game, he hack clears mindlessly from defence to space where Crows were always going to have two players set up behind the ball. He’s been a great servant but he’s done.

We get Mills back next week, I’d also give Hanily a run again. And then look to find an opportunity for Dattoli after a month of good footy.

i don’t really want to say too much positive but . . . I’d knocked Grundy a bit this year, but he was the one bloke who played 120 minutes of effort footy. A few others like Juzzy, Chad and Heeney were good at the contest. And I thought Mitchell was ok. After that though . . .

You've commented on a couple of things that formed in my mind watching at the SCG yesterday.

Firstly (and less importantly), Grundy was the one player who stood out to me as having a real crack all night long. He wasn't flawless, conceded a few free kicks (many possibly unfairly), but he attacked the contest and never let up.

Secondly, tackling was the aspect that stood out to me as a glaring cause and/or symptom of our malaise. Our tackling has been poor all year. It wasn't great at times last year. We go through the motions of tackling and let opponents slip through with ease. Too many of our tackles result in free kicks to the opposition because we carelessly go high. Even allowing for the frustratingly inconsistent application of HTB, and the occasional lack of reward for blatant HTBs that should go in our favour, we just need to do this better. Tackling is part intent, part discipline and a large part technique. So if I were Cox, I would hone in on tackling this week and make it the one thing they have to focus on. There are no excuses for any player not to get on board because tackling isn't about talent or skill.

Fixing tackling won't fix our game on its own but it does seem like a good place to start.

[liz]

Those writing off Cox as a coach, or declaring some of less experienced players as duds who might as well be delisted now, are jumping the gun and/or being ridiculous. Cox is learning how to coach, sure. He's not a ready made coach. But many coaches come in and struggle to start before gradually learning. It's hard when your team is down on confidence and you keep losing players to injury and suspension. But it won't always be that way. Similarly, it's hard for the likes of Bice and Cleary to function in a team that is a rabble. They can't be expected to turn things around. Bice could do with a spell in the reserves. Cleary I'd stick with in the senior team for now. He was one of our least bad last week against Melbourne, notwithstanding his inability to convert his goal opportunities.

[Roadrunner]

Lloyd needs an extended stay in the 2’s to regain some confidence.

This will likely be Rampe’s last or second last year, I think he’ll be okay if we can find some structure.

Hamling tries, but I agree, I don’t think he’s AFL material.

Bice and Corey Warner aren’t up to the challenge, I agree. They should be delisted along with Hamling.

Sheldrick and McClean will come good, I think. They show glimpses of greatness.

We lack leadership. Mills shouldn’t be captain, it should either be Heeney or Rowbottom. Cox needs to step up and developed a game plan or tactic that can stop the bleeding.

Take a mark, kick in, whatever, from there we need set plays to generate some space for safe leads and passes. We’ve been a rabble for most matches this year. No structure, no plan, no leadership.

Totally agree Blue Sun. I don’t mind Francis as he’s got some football intelligence and rarely wastes possessions, even though he may not get too many!
The reality is we have been calling out for talls for both ends of the ground for ages, but our recruiters have been unable to land true quality. A difficult task, no doubt, but surely there’s no point getting a small when it’s so obvious we need key talls!

I think a lack of height coupled with a huge drop in confidence as a result of being constantly being out marked has resulted in what we have been seeing this year. Last year we had a healthy list and this papered over our lack of aerial power, resulting in our GF debacles where we were out muscled and out marked. We will struggle until this is addressed. The Tigers won their flags with a great balance between their talls and smalls, and it is important to keep in mind that their smalls were all skilful and pacy!
We need to now play Buller, Snell and Edwards, Hanily and maybe one or two others including Mitchell as we know the current team is shot.

[MattW]

Bice needs to be persevered with after what he showed earlier in the year. Have doubts about Sheldrick. Hard at it but lacks speed and his kicking is ordinary. Hope I'm wrong.

Hard at it is a valued trait at the moment. No-one is applying optimal method.

[liz]

We need to now play Buller, Snell and Edwards, Hanily and maybe one or two others including Mitchell as we know the current team is shot.

We can't play Edwards at the moment. He's injured.

Snell is being asked to play roles in the VFL he's not yet equipped for. He struggled badly against the leading of Van Rooyen and Jefferson, albeit that he was getting no help from the middle applying an iota of pressure. He's probably suited to playing a third tall role, in the same way that Alex Johnson was introduced to the senior side. Given the pairing of Melican and McCartin are one of the least bad parts of our team at the moment, maybe it's worth a shot to bring Snell in alongside. He can't do worse than Hamling did yesterday. But it would be better to bring him in when he's coming off a couple of solid VFL games, albeit that's hard when he's being asked to play a lone "tall defender" hand in a VFL side that can't retain possession and can't apply pressure.

Buller had a poor game yesterday too. He lacks the pace and/or nous to lead. I'm not against giving him a shot (he can't be worse that what we have at the moment) but I don't think he'll add anything different to Ladhams or McLean. All lack agility and pace.

I'd certainly give Hanily another chance soon, if not next week. He and Dattoli were the only real bright spots in yesterday's VFL game. Dattoli could do with a solid few weeks finding his feet in the VFL before being promoted, but he will likely warrant a debut soon if he can repeat yesterday's performance in an otherwise poor team.

I have reservations on Mitchell as an AFL-level player (not based on what he's actually done at AFL level but from watching what he does, and doesn't do, at VFL level) but he might as well be persevered with in the short term.

[Roadrunner]

We can't play Edwards at the moment. He's injured.

Snell is being asked to play roles in the VFL he's not yet equipped for. He struggled badly against the leading of Van Rooyen and Jefferson, albeit that he was getting no help from the middle applying an iota of pressure. He's probably suited to playing a third tall role, in the same way that Alex Johnson was introduced to the senior side. Given the pairing of Melican and McCartin are one of the least bad parts of our team at the moment, maybe it's worth a shot to bring Snell in alongside. He can't do worse than Hamling did yesterday. But it would be better to bring him in when he's coming off a couple of solid VFL games, albeit that's hard when he's being asked to play a lone "tall defender" hand in a VFL side that can't retain possession and can't apply pressure.

Buller had a poor game yesterday too. He lacks the pace and/or nous to lead. I'm not against giving him a shot (he can't be worse that what we have at the moment) but I don't think he'll add anything different to Ladhams or McLean. All lack agility and pace.

I'd certainly give Hanily another chance soon, if not next week. He and Dattoli were the only real bright spots in yesterday's VFL game. Dattoli could do with a solid few weeks finding his feet in the VFL before being promoted, but he will likely warrant a debut soon if he can repeat yesterday's performance in an otherwise poor team.

I have reservations on Mitchell as an AFL-level player (not based on what he's actually done at AFL level but from watching what he does, and doesn't do, at VFL level) but he might as well be persevered with in the short term.

I haven’t watched our VFL team so I accept your views on the players mentioned. Also, I fully concur with your comments above regarding our poor tackling- to me, this is also a clear sign of lack of confidence and as you say, Coxy should concentrate on improving this aspect of our game. It’s tackles that apply the pressure even though so many umpiring decisions went against us. Given we don’t have good talls at present, isn’t it obvious our smalls need to lead to space? And why leave our forward line undermanned so often? It’s unrealistic to expect to score when we are outnumbered in our F50. It happens time and again!

[Mountain Man]

A very disappointing night - particularly after last week's insipid performance.

The season seems shot, and like others, I wonder what the best actions are for the future. I endorse the suggestions re Tackling, and hopes for reintroduction of players, but I think Cox should make a statement now about how he sees the future. The current structure/game plan seems ineffective, and I believe he need to articulate what he wants and make moves towards his vision for the future. And, of course, bring the players and Club with him.

My armchair suggestions are:

1. Heeny should play Centre Half Forward starting now. He would likely operate with more space there than in the congestion of centre bounces and, with his football intelligence, would hopefully be the "target" we are so lacking. I see this as a long term structural solution - not to say he could impose himself elsewhere from time to time,,

2. Experiment with Sheldrick and Cleary in the congestion. They are currently rather small, and not elite kicks, but if we are thinking of the future, we need to find out their "extraction" skills for the long term. I like Rowbottom, but his effectiveness is defensive, and we must find some attacking options. Adams is slow, but has some size; an interim solution at best in there; certainly not forward.

3. Again, focussing on longterm, Gulden is brilliant in open play and Warner, like Heeney, is more effective outside the congestion. Lloyd and Co. Warner do not seem to have anything to offer long term in these outside "wing" roles.

4. McCartin and Melican are solid as key defenders, but we need to find the long term 3rd defender tall. I'm reluctant to say it, but Rampe is not the future.

[imuninformedtwo]

I get the commentary re Sheldrick’s disposal but not his place in the side now. He can find the pill and win a hard ball, which is something we need more of, particularly if we’re going to give players like Warner the space he needs to be at his best. He’s also earned a decent run at it. At worst, we fatten up the pig for sale.

One bloke who is struggling is JJ. He seems neither here nor there in his role. I’m not suggesting we drop him, rather we commit to a job for him - probably best as a tag on running defenders where he can also use his skills going inside 50. Right now, he sometimes tags, sometimes not, sometimes mid, sometimes not. I get role players can struggle when the system is out but he’d benefit from a defined role at the moment instead of being thrown here, there and everywhere.

[UUaswan]

We can't play Edwards at the moment. He's injured.

Snell is being asked to play roles in the VFL he's not yet equipped for. He struggled badly against the leading of Van Rooyen and Jefferson, albeit that he was getting no help from the middle applying an iota of pressure. He's probably suited to playing a third tall role, in the same way that Alex Johnson was introduced to the senior side. Given the pairing of Melican and McCartin are one of the least bad parts of our team at the moment, maybe it's worth a shot to bring Snell in alongside. He can't do worse than Hamling did yesterday. But it would be better to bring him in when he's coming off a couple of solid VFL games, albeit that's hard when he's being asked to play a lone "tall defender" hand in a VFL side that can't retain possession and can't apply pressure.

Buller had a poor game yesterday too. He lacks the pace and/or nous to lead. I'm not against giving him a shot (he can't be worse that what we have at the moment) but I don't think he'll add anything different to Ladhams or McLean. All lack agility and pace.

I'd certainly give Hanily another chance soon, if not next week. He and Dattoli were the only real bright spots in yesterday's VFL game. Dattoli could do with a solid few weeks finding his feet in the VFL before being promoted, but he will likely warrant a debut soon if he can repeat yesterday's performance in an otherwise poor team.

I have reservations on Mitchell as an AFL-level player (not based on what he's actually done at AFL level but from watching what he does, and doesn't do, at VFL level) but he might as well be persevered with in the short term.

If we don't have the cattle, try making some positional changes.

Bice is an elite running line breaker, he like Blakey, aren't lockdown defenders.

Drafted both for their unique traits then dont use them

[The Big Cat]

If we don't have the cattle, try making some positional changes.

Bice is an elite running line breaker, he like Blakey, aren't lockdown defenders.

Drafted both for their unique traits then dont use them

Don’t know about Bice, but Blakey was taken as a forward from the academy.

[liz]

Blakey played everywhere in his underage years. Where the ball was, Blakey typically was.

Last year he was a key part of our ball movement from defence, as well as being a good interceptor and decent one-on-one spoiler. If we can get our defensive structure right (ie not have 17 players “guarding grass” in our back 50 while opponents waltz around them, and when we do get our hands on the ball just hoik it forward to a wall of opposition players so it can come straight back in. If we can get that right, I think he has an important role in our defence.

It might be worth stationing him on a wing at times, to see if he can get his hands on occasional clearances and get the ball moving forward with some purpose. But there’s little point him playing in the forward line until we can actually get the ball up there.

[UUaswan]

Don’t know about Bice, but Blakey was taken as a forward from the academy.

Eitherway, we may as well bring Gulden in as the Back Pocket defender.

Total waste of Talent in Blakeys case, potential in Riley's case

The jury is obviously still out on Bice but from what I've seen I dont think he is a lockdown defender

[liz]

Eitherway, we may as well bring Gulden in as the Back Pocket defender.

Total waste of Talent in Blakeys case, potential in Riley's case

The jury is obviously still out on Bice but from what I've seen I dont think he is a lockdown defender

Bice has taken big steps in the level he’s playing at over a short period of time. I think last season was his first in the VFL. Now he finds himself not only playing in the AFL, but doing so in a defence under siege.

If he wants to carve out a long term AFL career, he’ll need to add to his defensive arsenal. But I don’t think it’s a slight on him that he’s not great at that right now.

Cunningham played half a VFL yesterday. He missed a couple of targets by foot but was generally “ok”. He looked to be moving ok. He may not be “the future” but if he and Wicks are both back in the team in, say, a fortnight, our defence will be better for it. Then Bice can either playing a more attacking role, or can get some time in the VFL to hone his game.