LRT out for 10 weeks

[swantastic]

Originally posted by liz
Why?

He's played about one quarter of senior AFL footy in defence - and not as a CHB. Whenever he's lined up in defence in the ACTAFL his form has been pretty ordinary. Unless he has worked miracles over summer, his endurance is nothing like able to stand up to running with the top CHFs in the league.

I would have thought that Ted and B2 are going to have to cover the CHB position between them unless some miracle emerges over pre-season.

The reason i say Vogels is IMO Ted could be used more efficiently around the ground and that we dont have any one else other than B2 to fill the CHB role.You can change your endurance a lot over the summer period so lets hope he has.

[ScottH]

Originally posted by Sanecow
A no brainer. Ted.

I concur.

[Bloody Hell]

Originally posted by liz

I would have thought that Ted and B2 are going to have to cover the CHB position between them unless some miracle emerges over pre-season.

I'd have imagined that Ted would be playing on the larger lads, given he is the only current defender of a decent size, meaning he'd be swappinig from FB to CHB from week to week.

Ideally B2 in a flanker...probably the best in the land, Leo will take a pocket - and I hate LRT. Therefore I see a spot for Vogels or Grundy (they both have a somewhat proven versitility that the swannies currently lack), though I haven't seen Grundy play in defence....could he do it at the top level?

[liz]

Originally posted by Bloody Hell
I'd have imagined that Ted would be playing on the larger lads, given he is the only current defender of a decent size, meaning he'd be swappinig from FB to CHB from week to week.

Ideally B2 in a flanker...probably the best in the land, Leo will take a pocket - and I hate LRT. Therefore I see a spot for Vogels or Grundy (they both have a somewhat proven versitility that the swannies currently lack), though I haven't seen Grundy play in defence....could he do it at the top level?

I think LRT is unfairly maligned by many. Until he hurt his foot, he was going along fine last season - it was an advance on 2005 and he seemed to be continuing his gradual improvement.

That said, I do agree with ROK's comment elsewhere that he's not the most creative CHB. His value is primarily as a stopper. It's unlikely that his career will be compared to his boss' when he retires. However, a player who can reasonably contain the likes of Riewoldt and Brown is a decent asset to the team.

With LRT out to start the season, some rejigging will have to occur. It is unlikely that Leo will be moved to a pocket, given he's been the FB for the last few seasons and there's no-one else obviously ready to step into his shoes. And particularly with LRT out to start, it's doubly unlikely to happen since Ted will probably be needed to cover him.

I have often wondered to myself whether Grundy could make a full back but it doesn't seem to be a role the coaching staff have tried to groom him for. He has very very rarely been given stints down back in the reserves - much less frequently than Vogels.

And my earlier comments weren't intended to write-off Vogels altogether from a defensive role - rather to point out that stepping straight into the CHB position from nowhere is unlikely to happen. He could get a role as a third man / spare man - the kind of role Richards played at times last year.

And maybe Sam Rowe is another option. He's a nice size, moves well and looks to have a very level head on him. Even though a rookie, I think the "nominated rookie" rule would allow him to play senior football. Will be interesting to see how he goes during this pre-season.

Another one to watch with interest over the next few weeks is Kieran Jack. With Crouch also likely to miss the start of the season, there is a spot available for a small back pocket, and Jack is probably the one whose physical attributes are most like Crouch's. A combination of Bevan and Schneider is probably a more obvious option to cover Crouch, but I'll be very interested to see if Jack can show enough over pre-season to put his name into the hat, in much the same way that Bevan did a few years ago.

[Bloody Hell]

Originally posted by liz
I think LRT is unfairly maligned by many. Until he hurt his foot, he was going along fine last season - it was an advance on 2005 and he seemed to be continuing his gradual improvement.

That said, I do agree with ROK's comment elsewhere that he's not the most creative CHB. His value is primarily as a stopper. It's unlikely that his career will be compared to his boss' when he retires. However, a player who can reasonably contain the likes of Riewoldt and Brown is a decent asset to the team.

With LRT out to start the season, some rejigging will have to occur. It is unlikely that Leo will be moved to a pocket, given he's been the FB for the last few seasons and there's no-one else obviously ready to step into his shoes. And particularly with LRT out to start, it's doubly unlikely to happen since Ted will probably be needed to cover him.

I think it was evident through the second half of last season that age is starting to tell on Leo. Had he been playing in another team he'd have been standing on the small marking forward his whole career. The things that make him able to punch above his weight class, particularly his leap, didn't seem there and he was relying on "infringing" to stop his man. He gave away alot of frees last year. I hope he can do it this year....but if a tough call has to be made, I hope they make it.

With LRT, I'll wait for seasons end to make a definative judgement, but I don't think he's the best option. If there was space on game day to have someone who could mark the oppositions resting ruckman, he'd be No.1 on the list...but there isn't. When anyone defends him they always point to the 2005 GF. In the first quarter I think he had something like 8 touches. But if you watch it with an eye on him, the ball kept falling to him...it was pure luck, not skill.

I think he lacks leg speed as well, and he's un-co. That dropped mark in the 2006 GF, unforgivable. CHB should be natural athletes...I don't see it in him.

For him to stay 2007 must be his year.

[SimonH]

Vogels ain't likely to go straight in & play on the opposition's best or 2nd-best big forward; but now he is far more likely to get picked in the 22 than he was, before this happened. He has a window of opportunity to show that he belongs as a regular selection in the side.

[Nolie]

Originally posted by ROK Lobster


...
I have little respect or admiration for most of RWO.

Bit harsh.

[liz]

Originally posted by Bloody Hell

When anyone defends him they always point to the 2005 GF.

Not me. I point to the final third of the 2005 season when he barely played a poor game, increased in confidence on a weekly basis, and finally established himself as an important cog in the defence. His GF performance didn't surprise me - it was a natural progression from what he'd shown in the preceding weeks.

And I point to the continuation of that form that he showed for all but the last month and a half of the 2006 season - at which point we know he started struggling with a foot injury.

I think he lacks leg speed as well, and he's un-co. That dropped mark in the 2006 GF, unforgivable. CHB should be natural athletes...I don't see it in him.

For him to stay 2007 must be his year.

He may not be about to win any GF sprints but in terms of endurance he's probably one of the most natural athletes in the squad. At CHB it is endurance that is mostly required, moreso than raw speed, since most of the CHFs rely on the ground they cover more than explosiveness.

As for his dropped mark, surely it is no more unforgivable than obvious blunders by the likes of Buchanan, Kennelly, Hall or Bolton? Or the non-performance of Jolly? Are they also on their last chance?

[Bloody Hell]

Originally posted by liz
Not me. I point to the final third of the 2005 season when he barely played a poor game, increased in confidence on a weekly basis, and finally established himself as an important cog in the defence. His GF performance didn't surprise me - it was a natural progression from what he'd shown in the preceding weeks.

And I point to the continuation of that form that he showed for all but the last month and a half of the 2006 season - at which point we know he started struggling with a foot injury.

I didn't see it that way. I thought his GF performance was his best game of the season, head and shoulders above the preceding matches. The fact that this was the most important game of the year magnified the difference again. The foot injury is understandable...why I wanted to wait till seasons end before passing judgement - He's played around 50 games, 2006 wasn't a very consistant year for LRT.

Originally posted by liz

He may not be about to win any GF sprints but in terms of endurance he's probably one of the most natural athletes in the squad. At CHB it is endurance that is mostly required, moreso than raw speed, since most of the CHFs rely on the ground they cover more than explosiveness.

As for his dropped mark, surely it is no more unforgivable than obvious blunders by the likes of Buchanan, Kennelly, Hall or Bolton? Or the non-performance of Jolly? Are they also on their last chance?

I agree he has a big engine for a big man, it's the main component of his arsenal that allows him to be effective,but so do the players he marks. I was refering to leg speed compared to his opponents.

Unforgiveable was the wrong word...I meant inconceiveable.

Week in and week out he has a job to do and in doing his best more often than not he does an adequate job. I just feel there is potential on the list that could conceivably do the job better...with more creativity and confidence. I'm looking forward to the start of the season knowing that someone will get that chance. Whether they take it or not is another issue.

[liz]

Originally posted by Bloody Hell
I didn't see it that way. I thought his GF performance was his best game of the season, head and shoulders above the preceding matches.

Go and dig out a tape of any of the late season games and have another look. The round 20 Lions game is a good place to start. And if you look back at threads on here from that time you will see even the most sceptical LRT-sceptics acknowledging his rapid improvement.

I just feel there is potential on the list that could conceivably do the job better...with more creativity and confidence.

Such as?

[Bloody Hell]

Originally posted by liz
Go and dig out a tape of any of the late season games and have another look. The round 20 Lions game is a good place to start. And if you look back at threads on here from that time you will see even the most sceptical LRT-sceptics acknowledging his rapid improvement.

I didn't say he wasn't improving I said "I thought his GF performance was his best game of the season, head and shoulders above the preceding matches. The fact that this was the most important game of the year magnified the difference again."
If he played like that every week I'd have nothing to post, but "2006 wasn't a very consistant year for LRT."

Originally posted by liz

Such as?

Vogels or Grundy...

Originally posted by Bloody Hell
I'm looking forward to the start of the season knowing that someone will get that chance. Whether they take it or not is another issue.

As you've already said it's extremely unlikely either will slot into CHB, but the addition of Vogels would give another set of legs running out of arguably the most attacking defense in the league. As I've already said I haven't seen Grundy in the back half, so can't comment....I wouldn't mind seeing what he could do, in attempting to develop a player who can switch between front and back....to be honest if there's oppourtunity It'd be great if both could be developed to fill this sort of role.

[Sanecow]

Last year, LRT owned Jonathon Brown (round 6 - didn't kick a goal on LRT but then followed up with bags of 8.4, 7.0 and 7.3!) and Matthew Richardson (round 16 - didn't kick a goal and his lowest possession game of the year). We would have made the grand final without those wins.

[swantastic]

Originally posted by Sanecow
Last year, LRT owned Jonathon Brown (round 6 - didn't kick a goal on LRT but then followed up with bags of 8.4, 7.0 and 7.3!) and Matthew Richardson (round 16 - didn't kick a goal and his lowest possession game of the year). We would have made the grand final without those wins.

May be so but a couple of good games don't make a good player.

[Sanecow]

Originally posted by swantastic
May be so but a couple of good games don't make a good player.

They can make a season though!

[swantastic]

Originally posted by Sanecow
They can make a season though!

Ala Nick Davis.