2 flags for a successful era.

[barry]

I think in these days of drafts and salary caps, where a clubs performance can cycle over a 10-20 year period, a club needs to extract two premierships while at the top of the cycle to be classified as a successful era.

1 Flag is good, but if you think in recent times, Port Adelaide would probably be disappointed they only got 1 flag after dominating H&A for 3 years straight.

3 or more Flags is a dynasty which is only matched by teams like the Lions, and Hawthorn/Carlton of the 80's.

2 Flags would match what North acheived in the late 90's. WC and Adelaide in the early - mid 90's.

We need one more flag out of the Roos/Hall era.

Good graph at :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Football_League#Competition_Timeline

[NMWBloods]

Yes, I've thought something similar.

Over the past 15 years, the standout team has obviously been the Lions - 3 flags from 4 straight GF appearances.

The other contenders for great teams in that time are:

North Melbourne 1994-2000 = 2 flags, 3 GFs, 4 PFs.
Adelaide 1997-98 = 2 flags, 2 GFs
West Coast 1991-94 = 2 flags, 3 GFs

The nearly-theres are:
Essendon 1999-2001 = 1 flag, 2 GFs
Port Adelaide 2002-04 = 1 flag, 1 GF, 2 PFs
Swans 2003-06 = 1 flag, 2 GFs, 1 PF
West Coast 2005-06 = 1 flag, 2 GFs

[573v30]

2003 - 4th, Preliminary Final
2004 - 5th, Semi Final
2005 - 1st, Premiers
2006 - 2nd, Runners-up

If 2007 is our year again, then it's definitely considered a successful era for the club under Roos.

[Doctor J.]

2003 - 4th, Preliminary Final
2004 - 5th, Semi Final
2005 - 1st, Premiers
2006 - 2nd, Runners-up

If 2007 is our year again, then it's definitely considered a successful era for the club under Roos.

Our official finish in 2003 was 3rd.

I know, pedantic

[swantastic]

Gee the Saints have gotten their fair share of wooden spoons.IMO the Swans era 2002- has been the most productive in all (on here) our life times so i'm pretty happy long live Roosy.

[SimonH]

It's all about flags, flags, flags. People (other than diehard club afficionados) don't look at the mid-30s as a successful era, despite the club making 4 GFs in a row and finishing minor premiers in 1935 and 1936 to boot. They just say: 3 flags in the VFL era. 1909, 1918, 1933. Maybe a brief mention of the bloodbath GF of '45. End of discussion.

Incidentally, we could yet equal the 1933-6 record in the 2005-8 period if we finish minor premiers and lose the GF this year; then finish minor premiers and lose the GF next year. Despite the fact that it will mean we win a lot of H&A matches, I hope we don't. It would coincide with most people's opinion of the period in which they expect us near the top of the table, though...

PS Looking at the Wikipedia comp timeline, I reckon it's a pretty safe bet that Geelong's current unended run of 45-odd years without either a flag or a wooden spoon will never be broken (even if it ends this year, which is bloody unlikely). 'Never bottom, but never top' says a lot about the club, actually.

[barry]

I

PS Looking at the Wikipedia comp timeline, I reckon it's a pretty safe bet that Geelong's current unended run of 45-odd years without either a flag or a wooden spoon will ever be broken (even if it ends this year, which is bloody unlikely). 'Never bottom, but never top' says a lot about the club, actually.

Yeah. Geelong's line stands out like a sore thumb. Quite remarkable. It could be that their home ground advantage has always insured the win enough to avoid the spoon.

Whats also remarkable is the rapid transformation from spoon to flags (Brisbane) and flag to spoons (Carlton) in recent times.

[hammo]

With 4 grand finals Brisbane are obviously the exceptions.

What is of concern is the Swans' current run of 1 PF (2003) and then the 2 grand finals (2005 & 2006) is very similar to Essendon (1999 PF, 2 grand finals in 2000 & 2001) and Port Adelaide (2PFs 2002 & 2003 and a GF in 2004).

We should enjoy the success while it lasts because modern history would suggest it won't for much longer. In fact, looking at the Essendon & Port examples, it could be argued our run may be over.

[NMWBloods]

One difference between us and both Essendon and Port, is they dominated the H&A seasons during their run. Arguably they missed out when more flags were there for the taking.

Essendon
1999 18-4, 1st
2001 17-5, 1st

Port Adelaide
2002 18-4, 1st
2003 18-4, 1st

We've never managed more than 15 wins.

[Go Swannies]

One difference between us and both Essendon and Port, is they dominated the H&A seasons during their run. Arguably they missed out when more flags were there for the taking.

Essendon
1999 18-4, 1st
2001 17-5, 1st

Port Adelaide
2002 18-4, 1st
2003 18-4, 1st

We've never managed more than 15 wins.

Fine turning. The Swans appear to care less about winning early games than having a good run into the finals. This is nerve wracking and may be why we've started harder this year - so it doesn't come down to percentages at the end. Or pride has us in front of ourselves and we'll drop later in the season. Only time will tell.

And it's worth noting that Port only won the Premiership when they stopped winning the Minor Premiership.

[liz]

Essendon stuffed up big time with their salary cap. Though the losses of Blumfield, Caracella and Heffernan might not look that devasting in the context of reasonably modest performances since they left the Bombers (with Caracella clearly being the most successful after he left but not as good as in 1999-2000), they were key parts of that Bomber team.

I think it would be equivalent to Sydney having problems and having to offload, say, Buchanan, Crouch and Kennelly (estimated in terms of relative importance to the team).

Port lost a few very good midfielders who decided they'd rather be at home than at Alberton (Stevens, Carr being the two stand-outs) - was there an issue with something at the club, or with Williams style? But given how quickly they seem to be bouncing back, it looks as if they managed to retain the core of a good squad. And the injuries to Tredrea over the past two seasons clearly had an impact on their temporary drop. Any other team that manages to get back to being very competitive so quickly would be very happy.

Which brings us to West Coast. On paper they look as unlikely to drop off any time soon as the Bombers did in 2000, with strength right across the park and lots of very promising young players unable to break into the team. But you have to wonder how far away they are from having to sacrifice a couple of players due to the cap.

Cousins is reported to be on $700k a year. Let's assume he recovers and stays. Kerr and Judd would have to be worth that much as a minimum - other clubs will offer them more, so it will depend on how much they want to stay in Perth (especially Judd). And if you were Dean Cox, you'd almost certainly look to be paid at a similar level too. That means those four players could easier command in excess of a third of the total cap. Then throw in the likes of Wirrpanda, Hunter, Glass, Embley, and there's not going to be much left to remunerate the likes of Butler, Hansen, Rosa, Hurn, Nicoski, Seaby, Waters etc as they start to negotiate their second and third contracts at the club. Cousins aside, there aren't any highly paid players close to retirement who might relieve the situation any time soon. And the Cousins situation could go either way. If Cousins does get back, you'd almost think that the Eagles might be happy to lose Judd just to keep the rest of the squad together, especially since it would net them a number of very high picks which they can use to keep topping up the quality at the bottom end of the list.

[swantastic]

Your pretty switched on there Liz that was a very good summarization.

[Matt79]

Quite remarkable. It could be that their home ground advantage has always insured the win enough to avoid the spoon.

That same thought process did not do enough for us in the early 90s though with the SCG and the fact teams travelled interstate less (no Port / Freo).

[sWAns63]

Port Adelaide have pulled the ultimate turnaround they gave match time late last year to young players like Thomas, Surjan, Bentley,Thomson, Symes, White etc. and now they are reaping the rewards.
Together with the Burgoyne & Cornes brothers and now Pierce & Tredrea back they look to be the equal on paper of any team
WCE on the other hand lean heavily on their midfielders Kerr & Judd then Cousins then Cox then Embley and Wirrapunda etc.
I think we have seen the impact of no Cousins and an underdone Cox with Richmond causing WCE supporters some shudders last week I would like to see what WCE would look like with no Judd & Kerr as well I think they would come back to the field pretty quickly
I think Sydney need to bring in players like Jack & Phillips we need to have some zippy chasers, it is unfortunate to lose players like Kenelley, Ablett,
LRT and Buchanan though you can try to put a positive spin by giving players like Jack ,Phillips & even Laidlaw some game time, we might need their pace around finals time.

[cruiser]

to West Coast. On paper they look as unlikely to drop off any time soon as the Bombers did in 2000, with strength right across the park and lots of very promising young players unable to break into the team. But you have to wonder how far away they are from having to sacrifice a couple of players due to the cap.

Cousins is reported to be on $700k a year. Let's assume he recovers and stays. Kerr and Judd would have to be worth that much as a minimum - other clubs will offer them more, so it will depend on how much they want to stay in Perth (especially Judd). And if you were Dean Cox, you'd almost certainly look to be paid at a similar level too. That means those four players could easier command in excess of a third of the total cap. Then throw in the likes of Wirrpanda, Hunter, Glass, Embley, and there's not going to be much left to remunerate the likes of Butler, Hansen, Rosa, Hurn, Nicoski, Seaby, Waters etc as they start to negotiate their second and third contracts at the club. Cousins aside, there aren't any highly paid players close to retirement who might relieve the situation any time soon. And the Cousins situation could go either way. If Cousins does get back, you'd almost think that the Eagles might be happy to lose Judd just to keep the rest of the squad together, especially since it would net them a number of very high picks which they can use to keep topping up the quality at the bottom end of the list.

Which lends itself to another thread: Who, on the current WCE list, would you most like to see at Sydney? Apart from the obvious answer Judd, my next picks would be Glass and Wirrpanda.