What changes are needed to go from also rans to a contender?

[connolly]

Kirk will keep you in a game. He wont win one though.

Almost won a grand final (06) for us. Teddy Richards took one step too far and didn't kick the goal that would have won it. Almost winning (one kick short) a grannie will do me.

[SimonH]

...Yes we are 4th but with a normal draw we would be lower i imagine and the teams around us have beaten us easily.

But the club internally seems to hang on to us being 4th and the fact that yes we did lose to other top teams, but not by much.

Just a product of where things are right at this moment. By round 22 we will have had a 'normal draw' (in fact, marginally harder than the average), and we'll see where we are then. If we're 4th it's because we deserve to be; and if we are, we'll have a genuine shot at the flag that we won't have if we're 5th or worse.

...
I think until we start getting thrashed we wont see any change, because the club thinks its all fine, and just luck and persistance will switch it around

No. It's all about W/L. Fremantle have barely been thrashed all year, and there's a consensus they need some pretty fundamental changes. The Swans percentage in 2002 was pretty good (for a team that was something like 3-1-9) when Eade got the bullet (i.e. we'd had a lot of close losses). If we keep losing, changes will come, whether those losses are by 1 point or 101 points. In the meantime, it's naive to think that the senior players who have got us to 9-1-5 (and a very good percentage) won't be given a chance to turn it around.

The way that the Swans rarely get booted off the park is a deeply admirable quality, as I'd hope anyone who's followed a team that has gotten regularly thrashed would agree. Especially if it happens over a long period and/or predictably, it saps all enthusiasm from the fan-base.

[swansrule100]

The way that the Swans rarely get booted off the park is a deeply admirable quality, as I'd hope anyone who's followed a team that has gotten regularly thrashed would agree. Especially if it happens over a long period and/or predictably, it saps all enthusiasm from the fan-base.

but it seems to have developed a game style where we are trying to minimise the damage and grind teams down, as opposed to daring to win the game

[SimonH]

but it seems to have developed a game style where we are trying to minimise the damage and grind teams down, as opposed to daring to win the game

Obviously what you're after is a balance. A good example of a team that didn't have the balance right was the 1986/87 Swans: could kick cricket scores and monotonously beat teams by 15 goals+, but when the real pressure was applied by quality opposition, got booted off the park too easily. A similar problem haunted the Blight Cats.

When their style is played well, the Roos Swans are like a good gambler: stop your losses, but let your wins run. When played poorly, it looks like we're just trying to lose by no more than 5 goals. But any team that plays poorly all day is bound to lose (unless the opposition plays worse), so that's hardly a tactical issue.

The practical difference between us and say, the 2008 Essendon, is that by restricting our losses when we play poorly, if we can turn it around during the course of a game we're close enough to have a sniff at winning, as opposed to merely turning a 15 goal loss into a 7 goal loss. See, for example, the 2008 Weagles game. Or for that matter the 2006 GF.

By the way, I agree with Boodnutz that Roos is disingenuous to say that the defence is the problem (although there did seem to be communication problems back there). Turnovers in the midfield when all of our bodies were running forward, gave the Hawks the ability to easily hurt us on the rebound.

[swansrule100]

Obviously what you're after is a balance. A good example of a team that didn't have the balance right was the 1986/87 Swans: could kick cricket scores and monotonously beat teams by 15 goals+, but when the real pressure was applied by quality opposition, got booted off the park too easily. A similar problem haunted the Blight Cats.

When their style is played well, the Roos Swans are like a good gambler: stop your losses, but let your wins run. When played poorly, it looks like we're just trying to lose by no more than 5 goals. But any team that plays poorly all day is bound to lose (unless the opposition plays worse), so that's hardly a tactical issue.

The practical difference between us and say, the 2008 Essendon, is that by restricting our losses when we play poorly, if we can turn it around during the course of a game we're close enough to have a sniff at winning, as opposed to merely turning a 15 goal loss into a 7 goal loss. See, for example, the 2008 Weagles game. Or for that matter the 2006 GF.

By the way, I agree with Boodnutz that Roos is disingenuous to say that the defence is the problem (although there did seem to be communication problems back there). Turnovers in the midfield when all of our bodies were running forward, gave the Hawks the ability to easily hurt us on the rebound.

yes i agree with that, our balance is probably off at the moment to the other extreme of say blights cats.

I still think theres a reluctance for change around the club though and the fact results are never that bad limits the change.

I know you dont want to be down the bottom or thumped every week, but the current side is making up the numbers in the finals at best, so why not make some changes? mix things up, make a move mid game that is bold and daring.

all i am getting at is our gameplan limits us from huge defeats and thus the club always thinks its a matter of lifting a bit in form and it will come good.

We will not beat the current top 3, or collingwood or even the crows with the rubbish we have served up the last few weeks and i include the melbourne, stkilda and west coast wins in that. We were pretty rubbish in those games.

[dimelb]

By the way, I agree with Boodnutz that Roos is disingenuous to say that the defence is the problem (although there did seem to be communication problems back there). Turnovers in the midfield when all of our bodies were running forward, gave the Hawks the ability to easily hurt us on the rebound.

Eh? I noticed Boodnutz (why isn't it Bloodnutz by the way?) made that comment, but Roos actually said the midfield was the problem. I think he's right.

[BeeEmmAre]

What does that even mean? We're supposed to have our heads in the clouds as our team serves up this crap each weekend?

It means exactly what it says DA and the rest of you.

It seems that people forget that it is only three weeks ago that we won our sixth game in a row and were playing great footy and people were saying 'Geelong - can't wait'.

Yes I am unhappy with the fact we have lost the past two matches, but the wholesale changes and the sackings and retirements of every second player in the team that RWOers are calling for is just ridiculous and tantamount to asking the team to tank IMO.

Sure, I know that things aren't perfect - if they were we'd be Geelong - but I will always keep the faith in the club, the coaching staff, the playing squad and what they are doing, and I think a little bit of faith wouldn't go astray with a lot of you.

My two cents.....

[BeeEmmAre]

If Buddy could kick straight we would have lost by 60.

If Monty and his mates could kick straight we might have won.

PS. There, I can criticise too - I just won't call for wholesale changes.

[DST]

No need for major changes in either personal or gameplan.

We have blooded 3 youngsters this year (Jack, Bird & Moore) and have two new players to the club (Mattner & Playfair).

You would suspect that at least 5 players from the current squad (Crouch, Matthews, Everitt, Leo Barry and MOL) will all finish up at the end of the year.

If we push five new players into the team to replace those and another couple of fringe players that will be 10 changes to a team that went out against Collingwood on the 07 final.

Our core next year will still be strong with Kirk, ROK, Goodes, C Bolton, Eski, Kennelly, Jolly, Richards, Hall, McVeigh, Ablett, Fossie.

Hopefully the likes if Currie, White, Laidlaw, Vespa, Meredith, DOK, Faulks, Thornton along with continual improvement of Bird, Jack, Moore, Schmidt and Barlow will compensate for our retirements.

DST

[sprite]

After watching Spida on Sunday - I felt really sorry for the guy.

The mind keeps on ticking over but the body can't deliver.

Perhaps he needs to concentrate on skilling up either White or Currie for the remainder of the year. Giving them an opportunity.

I don't believe he can help get us a flag, as much as I wish he could.

[DeadlyAkkuret]

It means exactly what it says DA and the rest of you.

It seems that people forget that it is only three weeks ago that we won our sixth game in a row and were playing great footy and people were saying 'Geelong - can't wait'.

That's all well and good, but we've failed our two biggest tests of the year. Those 6 wins were games we simply should have won, but we're still a very average side against top 4 teams.

[BeeEmmAre]

That's all well and good, but we've failed our two biggest tests of the year. Those 6 wins were games we simply should have won, but we're still a very average side against top 4 teams.

Which may even be the case (or not).

Either way, I will be on board and believing in everything they do until if/when we are eliminated.
Call it blind faith if you like, but that's me and always will be me.

My religion is Red and White. My Pope is Paul Roos. My Disciples are the players. We are the Pilgrims.

[Xie Shan]

The way that the Swans rarely get booted off the park is a deeply admirable quality, as I'd hope anyone who's followed a team that has gotten regularly thrashed would agree. Especially if it happens over a long period and/or predictably, it saps all enthusiasm from the fan-base.

I agree. Really, our game against the Hawks was not much better than the train wreck against the 'Pies. Some may scoff at this, but watching on TV I couldn't help but admire the guys the way they dragged themselves back into the game in the third quarter, our only decent one for the match. Otherwise we would have gotten trashed, even allowing for Buddy's conversion rates.

That said, I reckon it's going to be really really hard for us to hang on to our top 4 spot given our injuries and form since the break. Another early exit from the finals is looking inevitable, I'm afraid.

[Jewels]

My religion is Red and White. My Pope is Paul Roos. My Disciples are the players. We are the Pilgrims.

I hear ya brother!

[SimonH]

You would suspect that at least 5 players from the current squad (Crouch, Matthews, Everitt, Leo Barry and MOL) will all finish up at the end of the year.

No way! By some miracle, MOL is playing better (and looking less pained) than he did in the 2003-06 period. He's doing things that he could most recently do in the early 2000s and before. The guy's found the fountain of youth. He would be mad not to go on in 2009.