Great opportunity to revitalize our list

[Lohengrin]

FFS i didnt realise I had to name a certain number

Just how many games does it take to qualify as a matchwinner?

I'm not going to go back and review his career but 2005 Preliminary Final is another obvious example

Two games in 4 years doesn't make a matchwinner. ROK is a solid contributor, sometimes very good, but also sometimes just average. He's very rarely a matchwinner in my view.

[tombomb]

Ray, Lovett and Boyle are strugglers and if you think they are going to take us anywhere near a premiership in the future you are sorely mistaken.

Ok, then what do we do ... no one is going to trade a top 10 pick ... we are not going to be a threat next year with out current list ... we probably are not in any position to be a threat next year regardless of what we do, but we can put ourselves in a better position for 2010 onwards if we trade some of our older players while they have value.

This is what is being suggested by some (idiots) people on here at the moment.

We dont trade okeefe, we dont trade hall ... we dont trade anyone that any other teams actually want. we try to trade players like fosdike, davis, ablett ... all pick 40 + players. We then go into 2009 with basically the same starting 22 with only a couple of missing older senior players. no changes to the forward line, no changes to the midfield. we finish (maybe) 8-10th ... get about pick 25 in the draft, now the only players with any trade value we have are our younger players who we dont wanna get rid of ...

Ray and lovett are both undoubtedly very talented players. Boyle would be brought in a replacement for hall ... of course not as good, but a lot younger and has shown he is capable of 30 goals in a year.

[swan_song]

Two games in 4 years doesn't make a matchwinner. ROK is a solid contributor, sometimes very good, but also sometimes just average. He's very rarely a matchwinner in my view.

Interesting to note here that we seem to be developing a penchant for ridding ourselves of real matchwinners, not only potential ones..given that we seem about to offload St Nick, and this year's staggering trading of Schneider. And we are filling places on our already mediocre, ageing, slow and inept list with the likes of Brennan and Playfair...Monty won the GF for us in 2005, maybe he'll be axed next...it's a wonder Leo of the match-saving mark fame is still with us...

[caj23]

Two games in 4 years doesn't make a matchwinner.

This is a stupid comment

ROK is a solid contributor, sometimes very good, but also sometimes just average. He's very rarely a matchwinner in my view.

Why didn't you just say this in the first place instead of being a tosser about it?

[caj23]

Ok, then what do we do ... no one is going to trade a top 10 pick ... we are not going to be a threat next year with out current list ... we probably are not in any position to be a threat next year regardless of what we do, but we can put ourselves in a better position for 2010 onwards if we trade some of our older players while they have value.

This is what is being suggested by some (idiots) people on here at the moment.

We dont trade okeefe, we dont trade hall ... we dont trade anyone that any other teams actually want. we try to trade players like fosdike, davis, ablett ... all pick 40 + players. We then go into 2009 with basically the same starting 22 with only a couple of missing older senior players. no changes to the forward line, no changes to the midfield. we finish (maybe) 8-10th ... get about pick 25 in the draft, now the only players with any trade value we have are our younger players who we dont wanna get rid of ...

Ray and lovett are both undoubtedly very talented players. Boyle would be brought in a replacement for hall ... of course not as good, but a lot younger and has shown he is capable of 30 goals in a year.

I'd actually be happy to see the back of Hall as I think he is a liability. I'd prefer to keep O'Keefe but if he wants to go we may not have a choice

But instead of trading for more middle of the road players which we have an abundance of, we'd be better off loading up on draft picks in what is supposed to be a high quality draft this year

We should also have made Crouch and Barry retire and offer Ablett to any team that would take him

[Lohengrin]

This is a stupid comment

Why didn't you just say this in the first place instead of being a tosser about it?

Why is it a stupid comment? How can people state that he is a "genuine matchwinner" when they are hard pressed to find games where he has been a matchwinner?

[Plugger46]

One game.

I agree with most of your posts but not on this occasion. Without Ryan O'Keefe, we wouldn't have made the finals in 2008. He is a genuine matchwinner - here are some examples, off the top off my head:

- A game late in 2004 against Essendon at the Olympic stadium.
- The game that started our run in '05 against Geelong. Admittedly we smashed them but he was clearly BOG.
- Vs Essendon at the dome in 2005.
- 2005 PF Vs St.Kilda
- Vs Carlton at the dome in 2006
- 2006 PF Vs Fremantle
- Vs Adelaide at AAMI in '07 (We did lose that one but he was outstanding, so had to throw it in!)
- Rd 16 2008 Vs Carlton
- 2008 EF Vs North Melbourne

I don't think we would would've won too many, if any of those without him. He's not a 'win the game off his own boot' type player but there's not many of those around. When you also consider that he's also one of our most consistent players, you begin to understand how valuable he is. I think there's some people seriously under-rating him.

I'd actually be happy to see the back of Hall as I think he is a liability.

Hard call. Certainly had a year to forget with silly incidents but his footy was good. I thought he played a few blinders (and had a couple of shockers, as he's always done since coming to the club) and his last 6 weeks were the Hall of old. Have a look at the last H&A game of the year against Brisbane - he was quiet but you'll see how many goals we got from him just being there and providing a contest. To be competitive, we need him in 2008.

People are deadset deluding themselves if they think Tim Boyle is the answer. He really isn't much better than Henry - he kicks better, that's about it.

[caj23]

Don't deny you were being a smart alec (toned down version)

Tombomb said he is not a matchwinner

I suggested that he watch the Carlton game in which he clearly was a matchwinner, I then posted "I'm not going to go back and review his career but 2005 Preliminary Final is another obvious example"

I tell you what, how about you go back and tell me all of the games that he wasnt a match winner in. If you don't come back to me with an exhaustive list then you must be wrong

[Lohengrin]

Don't deny you were being a smart alec (toned down version)

Tombomb said he is not a matchwinner

I suggested that he watch the Carlton game in which he clearly was a matchwinner, I then posted "I'm not going to go back and review his career but 2005 Preliminary Final is another obvious example"

I tell you what, how about you go back and tell me all of the games that he wasnt a match winner in. If you don't come back to me with an exhaustive list then you must be wrong

I wasn't being a smart alec. I was genuinely after the information. As I posted in the other thread, I think his year has been mixed. He's had some good games and some poor games. I think he is a very good player, but talk of him being a 'genuine matchwinner', a 'superstar' or a 'champion' really overrate him in my view.

Thanks P46 for the responses.

[tombomb]

Im still yet to hear how we are going to be a premiership contender again without trading off some of our older players. We don't trade this year and we will have to wait until goodes/hall/kirk/barry/c bolton/ j bolton/ etc... all retire and then we try and build from the bottom.

incidentally if there was a team willing to trade a top 25 pick for j bolton id be trading him as well.

[Plugger46]

Im still yet to hear how we are going to be a premiership contender again without trading off some of our older players. We don't trade this year and we will have to wait until goodes/hall/kirk/barry/c bolton/ j bolton/ etc... all retire and then we try and build from the bottom.

incidentally if there was a team willing to trade a top 25 pick for j bolton id be trading him as well.

I'm yet to hear why trading O'Keefe is going to make us a contender? Unless it's to get Kerr or another player of similar quality.

I don't think Farren Ray and/or Tim Boyle will make us a contender.

[tombomb]

I'm yet to hear why trading O'Keefe is going to make us a contender? Unless it's to get Kerr or another player of similar quality.

I don't think Farren Ray and/or Tim Boyle will make us a contender.

Draft picks!!!!!!!!! we need them.

farren ray could be a very good player

[gloveski]

Farren Ray could be a good player o'keefe already is

[tombomb]

Farren Ray could be a good player o'keefe already is

farren ray is 22.

and i am not suggesting we are going to get replacements for okeefe or hall, but rather yound players wo could develop into regular senior players.

and i wasnt suggesting we trade okeefe for ray.

[Plugger46]

Draft picks!!!!!!!!! we need them.

farren ray could be a very good player

We do. We also need a 28 yr old star that is close to the best contested mark in the competition. It's highly likely that a late first rounder or early second rounder won't turn out to be as good as O'Keefe.

I'm all for the draft and I'd like to see us keep all of our picks - and continue to develop the young players that we have.

As for Farren Ray, I'm not overly keen on outside midfielders with average skills. If he wasn't picked up so high in the draft, I doubt we'd be talking about him.