Best run club in the AFL and best culture

[The Big Cat]

After reading page after page of knocking and white anting of the club maybe its time for a few ill-informed people to look at the facts and halt the constant carping:

If you listen to any opposition player or opposing club officials or the AFL you continually hear that the Swans are the bench mark in most areas:

Medical treatment
Player culture
Corporate governance
Player stability
Team performance in terms of finals participation
Thinking outside the square

Ask any recruit from another AFL club and they all say the same thing. How well the club is run and how welcoming the place is - no cliques and everything with the coaches is on the table out in the open.

I know people like to use this forum to discuss footy issues, but a little bit of reality would help make many posts readable.

[Legs Akimbo]

What about in retaining players under contract?

[connolly]

After reading page after page of knocking and white anting of the club maybe its time for a few ill-informed people to look at the facts and halt the constant carping:

If you listen to any opposition player or opposing club officials or the AFL you continually hear that the Swans are the bench mark in most areas:

Medical treatment
Player culture
Corporate governance
Player stability
Team performance in terms of finals participation
Thinking outside the square

Ask any recruit from another AFL club and they all say the same thing. How well the club is run and how welcoming the place is - no cliques and everything with the coaches is on the table out in the open.

I know people like to use this forum to discuss footy issues, but a little bit of reality would help make many posts readable.

Points 3 and 4? The notion that a "player culture"can substitute for strong competent administration is simply shifting and abdicating responsibilty.

[royboy42]

Points 3 and 4? The notion that a "player culture"can substitute for strong competent administration is simply shifting and abdicating responsibilty.

Where did he say that?

[connolly]

Where did he say that?

He didnt. I questioned whether anyone would believe that Sydney's corporate governance and player stability would be the envy of any club at the moment. i then made a point about the confusion between a strong player culture (which we did have but clearly don't this season) and club governance. i assume he was making the point in the present. But the club governance and player stability apart from recent times has been appalling. The list of adminstrative disasters at this club over the years is very long. It ranges from recruitment disasters , (Daniher brothers, Carey, Buckanara, now Coney), player instability (Pitura, Rhys Jones, Williams, Rocca, Grant), bankruptcy (Edelstein). i see the period we are going through as potentially very similar to that of post 1987. Then players simply walked out of the club after it had enjoyed some success in the context of a club administration that was a shambles. Things are not as bad today but a club really does need a strong administration during a period of lack of success and rebuilding. the signs over the past six months or so are not good. The Davis circus, O'Keefe wanting to leave, Hall clearly not happy, Goodes unsettled, the Irish fiasco. Lets hope not but i suspect there is more to come.

[The Big Cat]

He didnt. I questioned whether anyone would believe that Sydney's corporate governance and player stability would be the envy of any club at the moment. i then made a point about the confusion between a strong player culture (which we did have but clearly don't this season) and club governance. i assume he was making the point in the present. But the club governance and player stability apart from recent times has been appalling. The list of adminstrative disasters at this club over the years is very long. It ranges from recruitment disasters , (Daniher brothers, Carey, Buckanara, now Coney), player instability (Pitura, Rhys Jones, Williams, Rocca, Grant), bankruptcy (Edelstein). i see the period we are going through as potentially very similar to that of post 1987. Then players simply walked out of the club after it had enjoyed some success in the context of a club administration that was a shambles. Things are not as bad today but a club really does need a strong administration during a period of lack of success and rebuilding. the signs over the past six months or so are not good. The Davis circus, O'Keefe wanting to leave, Hall clearly not happy, Goodes unsettled, the Irish fiasco. Lets hope not but i suspect there is more to come.

1. What proof is there that the player culture is any different than it was in recent years?
2. The Edelsten years were a disaster as was the initial conditions after the move to Sydney - but I am talking about now - In the Colless years.
3. The Rocca-Grant experience was the first time that Sydney chose not to be messed around by player threats of not coming to Sydney if they were drafted (eg Chris Johnston). Maybe they didn't stay but we got good trades in returns and players learnt not to make threats.
4. ROK was testing the water with a new manager believing he could squeeze more cash out of the Swans. The club stayed tough and ROK stayed even though the PSD was available if he was so keen to go home.
5. You can't quote the old South days as the administration then was all voluntary except the secretary and South had an appalling record of administration as evidenced by their forced move to Sydney.
6. The Davis fiasco, as you call it, was the club trying to get the best out of a wayward talent. Davis himself admits that he should have been sacked earlier. And remember that Collingwood was insistent that he was worth a first round pick. We hung tough and got him for a pick 2.
7. Player stability has in fact been high - very few changes from year to year - much to the chagrin of many on this forum who have been calling for the departure of three quarters of the list.
8. Hall unhappy? How do we know that? If he is, then it's not with the club. His life was a train wreck at St Kilda and he finished up being our premiership captain. If he was unhappy he could have retired and taken up boxing.
9. Goodes unsettled? Maybe he has had his frustrations but I think the club may be his saviour rather than the root cause, as it appears things outside footy have been the worry.
10. The irish fiasco? Coney is 18 and had second thoughts very early and seemed a reluctant recruit after his Gaelic sycophants got to him. Tadhg stayed ten years and has stated from day one that he was returning to Ireland. He went a year earlier than his contract, but so did Michael Voss. It happens all the time and the club saw no value in enforcing a contract when a players heart is elsewhere.

[ROK Lobster]

the Swans are the bench mark in most areas:


Thinking outside the square

I shudder to think how many players the club would have lost if Roosey had stayed upstairs in the box.

[Nico]

Oh yes TBC, the South Administration of the 70's forced to go to Sydney, no enforced by Aylett, Hamilton and their cohorts. The problem was 2 fold; poor administration in part that saw 18 senior players have lease cars and secondly vast amounts of money went missing in the years before the move with one person all of a sudden becoming a licensed bookmaker after the move. In those days you needed $300,000 cash up front to get a bookies license and he didn't have it from his own resources as legend goes. They also left the cricket club with a debt of around $45,000, unpaid.

Of course today's administration is not in the same bottom class but one of Connolly's points is that things just seem to be looking a little shaky in certain areas.

I am the supreme optimist and think we will still go OK this year. But I can't help looking upon the low level of youth promotion and the premiership credits (no form accountability) issue as being made of the same formula that beset Collingwood after 1990, Essendon in the 2000's and Brisbane. It looks to me that with the enormous fat set to be in the salary cap at the end of 2009 we have to get it right in recruiting some quality ready mades because the GC17 mob are set to strip the Under 18 comp.

On the flip side I am sure there is a strategy in place. I hope we keep Ireland who has been the premier administrator in the comp for a decade but he has taken a real broadside over the Kennelly saga if you believe what you read; a kick in the guts for someone who gets things right. Something has happened there that doesn't sound right.

[connolly]

1. What proof is there that the player culture is any different than it was in recent years?
2. The Edelsten years were a disaster as was the initial conditions after the move to Sydney - but I am talking about now - In the Colless years.
3. The Rocca-Grant experience was the first time that Sydney chose not to be messed around by player threats of not coming to Sydney if they were drafted (eg Chris Johnston). Maybe they didn't stay but we got good trades in returns and players learnt not to make threats.
4. ROK was testing the water with a new manager believing he could squeeze more cash out of the Swans. The club stayed tough and ROK stayed even though the PSD was available if he was so keen to go home.
5. You can't quote the old South days as the administration then was all voluntary except the secretary and South had an appalling record of administration as evidenced by their forced move to Sydney.
6. The Davis fiasco, as you call it, was the club trying to get the best out of a wayward talent. Davis himself admits that he should have been sacked earlier. And remember that Collingwood was insistent that he was worth a first round pick. We hung tough and got him for a pick 2.
7. Player stability has in fact been high - very few changes from year to year - much to the chagrin of many on this forum who have been calling for the departure of three quarters of the list.
8. Hall unhappy? How do we know that? If he is, then it's not with the club. His life was a train wreck at St Kilda and he finished up being our premiership captain. If he was unhappy he could have retired and taken up boxing.
9. Goodes unsettled? Maybe he has had his frustrations but I think the club may be his saviour rather than the root cause, as it appears things outside footy have been the worry.
10. The irish fiasco? Coney is 18 and had second thoughts very early and seemed a reluctant recruit after his Gaelic sycophants got to him. Tadhg stayed ten years and has stated from day one that he was returning to Ireland. He went a year earlier than his contract, but so did Michael Voss. It happens all the time and the club saw no value in enforcing a contract when a players heart is elsewhere.

O'Keefe clearly wanted to go and only due to circumstances and an incompetent manager did he re-sign. How on earth could O'Keefe mentor a young player about committment and player culture when he made it so clear he didn't want to be in Sydney? Hall has had very lucrative offers to box and i wouldn't be surprised if fight promoters are talking to him about just presenting the club with a fait accompli and retiring. If an 18 year old irish kid can do it why not Hall? According to many supporters and apparently what passes for a management at Sydney there is nothing that the club can, should do about it apart from a warm and fuzzy press release, hugs and some meditation. Hawthorn showed strong management when Everitt threatened to walk from Glenferrie. They told him they would fight it and whether he liked it on not he was contracted. A strong signal was sent to the players that they were under contract and the club would not be pressured into releasing players. As far as Goodes goes he is a dual Brownlow Medallist, has won us games due to his brilliance, is intelligent and articulate and hasn't managed to make it into a collective captaincy. He has been reduced to putting his CV in via the media. If he isn't upset he should be. The Davis fiasco refers to he and his arse clown manager making a farce of his contract negotiations. His contract should have been terminated when he approached the West Coast Eagles in public (on the SCG) from memory. We are not a strong club administratively and the off field leadership is virtually non-existent. Has Colless made a statement re the Irish fiasco? They thought it was smart spin to change the perception of a player walkout to a mutually agreed termination. Well when we are being slaughtered in the backline and the kids are being put to the sword, there is no run from the backline and we are being thumped maybe people will ask the questions. Sorry it doesn't wash. The club has real problems which will show up where it inevitably always does - on the paddock. By the way i am not white anting. Always been a loyal supporter of the club. Went to every game post Hafey and sat through every defeat. Supporting the club doesn't mean unquestioning loyalty to the chardonney quaffers in the free seats.

[ShockOfHair]

If this is a crisis we could raffle it

I enjoy Connolly?s impassioned advocacy of the unlikeliest causes, but on this occasion his OTT is OTT. It?s ridiculous to claim we?re heading for some kind of Edelsten-style meltdown, especially on the strength of the reasons given: a player wanting a raise, a player lucky not to record a criminal conviction, a top player not being made captain, a player retiring, and the delisting of a player unwanted by any other team.

In the Kennelly case, you can?t stop players retiring to play amateur league ? especially when they?ve said all along that?s what they want to do.

It?s completely implausible to suggest our backline will get slaughtered. Kennelly has either been injured or not shown anything like his 2005 form in the last two years and we?ve still had one of the best defences in the league (and I mean, one of the top two or three).

By an amazing coincidence, at the end of last year, 12 months before Tadhg?s expected retirement, we recruited a running half-back/midfielder. Shaw 2009 won?t be as good Kennelly 2005, but we?ll get plenty of run out of him. Not to mention Melcho, Mattner, Crouch and Jack.

One more thing on Kennelly: the world is in a record-breaking recession. The guy?s lined up a part-time job in the GAA that he might not have got at the end of the season. Don?t underestimate how much the recession is changing people?s calculations ? including the Swans.By letting Kennelly go, the club has saved a reported $450,000.

Of course, Kennelly should have retired at the end of 2008 and not had the operation at the club?s expense, but in the scheme of things it?s just not that big a deal. If Bird or Melcho or some other player with at least five good years in them left Sydney for another AFL club, I?d expect to see writs fly immediately. Not for a player retiring, or some kid on probation.

To go to the thread topic, as far as I can tell the Swans are extremely well-run; they?re certainly a benchmark in the medical room, and maybe in other things.

The Swan?s professionalism is one of the pleasures of following them.

I like the no-dickheads policy, I like the fact that the coach is cool in every sense of the word, I like the fact that the team recruits creatively and for the most part successfully. I like the fact that I never see a headline about a Swans player in a nightclub incident or smashing in a car windscreen. Most of all, I like the fact that in this decade we have the best playing record of any club after the Lions (another coincidence: Andrew Ireland).

That?s one stat for ?well-managed club?: on-field performance.

Empowerment means putting accountability on people to do things themselves instead of being told. It doesn't mean weak management. In this summer alone, I reckon there?ve been at least half a dozen AFL players disciplined for various offences ? Renouf, Aaron Edwards and Port?s new recruit Trengove are three that come to mind. I can?t remember the last time a Swans player got into trouble off a football field. What is that but a sign of incredibly strong discipline? Don?t anyone dare argue that it doesn?t matter. It matters to the players, it matters a lot to the club and the league and it certainly matters to the sponsor. That discipline translates onto the field.

So that?s another stat, or in the case of the Swans, the absence of one, for ?well-managed club?: discipline.

If you want to argue the club is on the verge of crisis, take a look around the league. This is more subjective, but in the last five years, I?d say the following clubs have experienced some kind of severe crisis in management and/or the football department: Melbourne, Port, Hawthorn, Richmond, Carlton, North, St Kilda, West Coast, Fremantle.

Geelong and Port have come pretty close.

AFAIR, Essendon, Collingwood, Dogs, Adelaide, Swans and Brisbane haven?t had the kind of existential crises that have hit those clubs.

Correct me if I?m wrong, the Swans? last major crisis was 15 years ago when Barassi was sent for.

That?s another stat: years passed since last crisis.

I share Nico?s concern about the membership. We may have squandered the post-premiership opportunity, though I think it?s more a Sydney thing. We have the second lowest membership of any club, just ahead of the Lions.

That explains the club?s cautious approach, which frustrates all of us. But the Swans? existence in Sydney can?t be taken for granted; the Sydney Kings died last year after 20-plus years.

I don?t have any animus against anyone wanting the Swans to do better. I don?t think they?re running down the club. But if they think we're in some kind of trouble, take a look at Melbourne, or the Hawks two years ago, or the Tigers just about any year since 1980.

I just don't see any evidence that we have any serious - as against normal, day-to-day - problems on or off the footy field.

[bedford]

Some great posts here all passionate about the club, we are well run and Colless is a great chairman.
Just maybe some fickle fans are sick of the boring game plan we have at times, it would be nice in round 1 to play attacking footy and smash St.Scum, maybe that might get a few members back if we played a better brand of footy.It won us a flag but is is time to move on or the fickle ones up there will follow West Sydney in the future.

[Nico]

O'Keefe clearly wanted to go and only due to circumstances and an incompetent manager did he re-sign. How on earth could O'Keefe mentor a young player about committment and player culture when he made it so clear he didn't want to be in Sydney? Hall has had very lucrative offers to box and i wouldn't be surprised if fight promoters are talking to him about just presenting the club with a fait accompli and retiring. If an 18 year old irish kid can do it why not Hall? According to many supporters and apparently what passes for a management at Sydney there is nothing that the club can, should do about it apart from a warm and fuzzy press release, hugs and some meditation. Hawthorn showed strong management when Everitt threatened to walk from Glenferrie. They told him they would fight it and whether he liked it on not he was contracted. A strong signal was sent to the players that they were under contract and the club would not be pressured into releasing players. As far as Goodes goes he is a dual Brownlow Medallist, has won us games due to his brilliance, is intelligent and articulate and hasn't managed to make it into a collective captaincy. He has been reduced to putting his CV in via the media. If he isn't upset he should be. The Davis fiasco refers to he and his arse clown manager making a farce of his contract negotiations. His contract should have been terminated when he approached the West Coast Eagles in public (on the SCG) from memory. We are not a strong club administratively and the off field leadership is virtually non-existent. Has Colless made a statement re the Irish fiasco? They thought it was smart spin to change the perception of a player walkout to a mutually agreed termination. Well when we are being slaughtered in the backline and the kids are being put to the sword, there is no run from the backline and we are being thumped maybe people will ask the questions. Sorry it doesn't wash. The club has real problems which will show up where it inevitably always does - on the paddock. By the way i am not white anting. Always been a loyal supporter of the club. Went to every game post Hafey and sat through every defeat. Supporting the club doesn't mean unquestioning loyalty to the chardonney quaffers in the free seats.

Thanks for that Connors. I always wondered how you spelled quaffers. Great word that, and rivals that other great word; pizzle, as in when you come home late you get a right pizzling from the missus, or when you have a real bender it is an absolute pizzling.

[T-bag]

Thanks for that Connors. I always wondered how you spelled quaffers. Great word that, and rivals that other great word; pizzle, as in when you come home late you get a right pizzling from the missus, or when you have a real bender it is an absolute pizzling.

put the pizzle to the shizzle.... word!