The St Kilda connection

[ShockOfHair]

Yeah but that could be because Shaw is hanging out with the "best and fairest" team in the history of the comp ... not with the wobbles.

And not because of your inspiring words of encouragement?

[dimelb]

Ummm just out of sheer, morbid, curiosity, who was it, In your opinion that put these players on the StKilda list??????

• Riewoldt
• Dal Santo
• Milne
• Goddard
• Fisher
• Montagna
• Koschitzke
• Ball
• Hayes
• Clarke

They were all fairly obvious choices, and the draft made them available. What I find interesting in the last, say, season and a half, is the improvement in most of those players; most noticeably in Dal Santo and Koschitzke who have become much more damaging players, the former because he is working smarter (and perhaps harder), the latter because he was always menacing but is no longer carrying the ruck. And which Clarke did you mean? If it's the injured one, I suspect they may end up getting more out of Dempster - another recycled player.

[liz]

Ummm just out of sheer, morbid, curiosity, who was it, In your opinion that put these players on the StKilda list??????

• Riewoldt
• Dal Santo
• Milne
• Goddard
• Fisher
• Montagna
• Koschitzke
• Ball
• Hayes
• Clarke

I reckon that list indicates that it is not the recycled players who have taken the Saints to where they currently are.

In contrast to the Saints, I reckon our "most important" 10 players would unquestionably include

- Bolton
- Hall
- Jolly

for sure. Arguably Mattner, due to his combination of pace and height, and based on the first 6 weeks, probably Shaw too, given how important his pace has been.

If you go back to our premiership team, Bolton and Hall were certainly critical components. Jolly maybe not so much back then. But you'd have to include Williams and Ball as top 10 important players in 2005, and almost certainly Davis too.

In contrast, I think only Gardiner and/or King are of similar importance to the Saints, and even that is questionable given that they've only been sporadically available since recruited due to injuries. Gardiner has, though, been important for them thus far in 2009.

[reigning premier]

They were all fairly obvious choices, and the draft made them available. What I find interesting in the last, say, season and a half, is the improvement in most of those players; most noticeably in Dal Santo and Koschitzke who have become much more damaging players, the former because he is working smarter (and perhaps harder), the latter because he was always menacing but is no longer carrying the ruck. And which Clarke did you mean? If it's the injured one, I suspect they may end up getting more out of Dempster - another recycled player.

You mean in the same way that draft made Tambling, Oakley-Nicholls, McMahon, Shulz & King available to Richmond??? So if you get a high draft pick, you automatically get good players??? Or is there something more in this whole draft thing??? Perhaps there's some sort of skill involved after all....


Yes, the injured one....

And if it is all about recycled players and getting the most out of your team, then bring on September so we can collect our cup!

[dimelb]

You mean in the same way that draft made Tambling, Oakley-Nicholls, McMahon, Shulz & King available to Richmond??? So if you get a high draft pick, you automatically get good players??? Or is there something more in this whole draft thing??? Perhaps there's some sort of skill involved after all....


Yes, the injured one....

And if it is all about recycled players and getting the most out of your team, then bring on September so we can collect our cup!

You're absolutely right about Richmond - their recruiting has been abysmal. And I do think there is some sort of skill involved. My point was that Thomas was a ratbag for insisting that they didn't need to rely so much on specialist ruckmen, and that was the first gap Ross Lyon filled - with recycled players. And IMO Clarke has not fulfilled his potential ... yet.

[Xie Shan]

Good article. I had my doubts about Lyon when he went to the Saints as it took a while for the team to adapt their playing style to his/our gameplan but I think it was a good move, when he took over they had a lot of talent but were your classic frontrunners -- he has changed that and managed to instil a much better team ethic into the players and for that he deserves kudos.

[pinkemu]

Good article. I had my doubts about Lyon when he went to the Saints as it took a while for the team to adapt their playing style to his/our gameplan but I think it was a good move, when he took over they had a lot of talent but were your classic frontrunners -- he has changed that and managed to instil a much better team ethic into the players and for that he deserves kudos.

And so did the Saints supporters and Melbourne media, they've all jumped back on the wagon this year (although they don't compare their style with the Swans). That's what winning games does for a coach. Most supporters and commentators are to impatient.

[Xie Shan]

^ Agree with that, I guess in Lyon's case they really did look to have gone backwards in the first year and a half after he took over and seemed to have forgotten how to kick goals, actually missed the finals in '07, so I think the criticism coming at him was a valid one. In the Saints' case he was able to turn it round, to his credit, and they're definitely a better team for having made the changes to their gameplan, remembering of course that they won plenty of games under Grant Thomas too. But that isn't always the case. Just look at Terry Wallace!!

[johnno]

OK, the difference between the swans game style of 2003-2006 and the current saints game style is....nothing, its exactley the same game style, only difference is that StKilda are executing much better. What we are seeing is StKilda absolutely flogging teams by heavy margins, kicking plenty of goals and restricting the opposition to not many goals, 6-8 tops. The swans were doing this as well in that period 03-06,restricting teams to 6-8 goals, but the difference is that the swans would only kick maybe 11-13 goals themselves for a 4-6 goal win, the saints on the other hand are kicking 15-20 goals themselves for a 60+point win. If you remember back to those years we had a lot of wins by 24-36 points(11-13 goals to 6-8 goals), we had the defensive aspect of that game style perfected, exactley as the saints have now, but we never had the offensive aspect of that game style perfected, which I believe the saints do. We did have the odd game in those years were everything did go perfect offensively, like the thumping of Richmond at docklands one year, a couple of Brisbane thumpings like the one were kennely kicked that amazing goal after spinning out of a michael voss tackle at Homebush. Those few games show just how great that game style is when both the offensive nature of it and the defensive nature of it are perfected in a game. The reason why I believe Stkilda are able to perfect both aspects of this game style well and consistently and the swans were not able to is because of the players. Ross Lyon has introduced this game style to his players and if you think about it, these players are all high draft pick players executing the perfect game style, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Ball, Del Santo, Kozzy, Fischer, Goddard, Montagna(I'm sure theres others, I just cant think of any), and lets not forget Schneider as well. The swans players who executed this game style were not high draft pick players, they were middle of the road draft pick players(exception being Goodes, who I know didnt go high in his draft, but is as good as any high draft pick player out there today). And that is the real difference. Same game style, executed differently by different standard players, you could argue that it gets you the same result, the 4 premiership points, but you could also argue that it doesnt, one team delivers thumpings, and the other team delivers a win by 4 goals. The thing that annoys me is that people(footy journo's) wont be calling Stkilda game style 'ugly' because of the thumpings, when at the end of the day it is exactley the same game style, just better standard players doing it for better results. Your thoughts people.

[BeeEmmAre]

I hadn't thought of it that way, but reading your comments, it's quite clear that you are spot on the money.
Well put.

[dimelb]

OK, the difference between the swans game style of 2003-2006 and the current saints game style is....nothing, its exactley the same game style, only difference is that StKilda are executing much better. What we are seeing is StKilda absolutely flogging teams by heavy margins, kicking plenty of goals and restricting the opposition to not many goals, 6-8 tops. The swans were doing this as well in that period 03-06,restricting teams to 6-8 goals, but the difference is that the swans would only kick maybe 11-13 goals themselves for a 4-6 goal win, the saints on the other hand are kicking 15-20 goals themselves for a 60+point win. If you remember back to those years we had a lot of wins by 24-36 points(11-13 goals to 6-8 goals), we had the defensive aspect of that game style perfected, exactley as the saints have now, but we never had the offensive aspect of that game style perfected, which I believe the saints do. We did have the odd game in those years were everything did go perfect offensively, like the thumping of Richmond at docklands one year, a couple of Brisbane thumpings like the one were kennely kicked that amazing goal after spinning out of a michael voss tackle at Homebush. Those few games show just how great that game style is when both the offensive nature of it and the defensive nature of it are perfected in a game. The reason why I believe Stkilda are able to perfect both aspects of this game style well and consistently and the swans were not able to is because of the players. Ross Lyon has introduced this game style to his players and if you think about it, these players are all high draft pick players executing the perfect game style, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Ball, Del Santo, Kozzy, Fischer, Goddard, Montagna(I'm sure theres others, I just cant think of any), and lets not forget Schneider as well. The swans players who executed this game style were not high draft pick players, they were middle of the road draft pick players(exception being Goodes, who I know didnt go high in his draft, but is as good as any high draft pick player out there today). And that is the real difference. Same game style, executed differently by different standard players, you could argue that it gets you the same result, the 4 premiership points, but you could also argue that it doesnt, one team delivers thumpings, and the other team delivers a win by 4 goals. The thing that annoys me is that people(footy journo's) wont be calling Stkilda game style 'ugly' because of the thumpings, when at the end of the day it is exactley the same game style, just better standard players doing it for better results. Your thoughts people.

How I see it too.

[Bloody Hell]

OK, the difference between the swans game style of 2003-2006 and the current saints game style is....nothing, its exactley the same game style, only difference is that StKilda are executing much better. What we are seeing is StKilda absolutely flogging teams by heavy margins, kicking plenty of goals and restricting the opposition to not many goals, 6-8 tops. The swans were doing this as well in that period 03-06,restricting teams to 6-8 goals, but the difference is that the swans would only kick maybe 11-13 goals themselves for a 4-6 goal win, the saints on the other hand are kicking 15-20 goals themselves for a 60+point win. If you remember back to those years we had a lot of wins by 24-36 points(11-13 goals to 6-8 goals), we had the defensive aspect of that game style perfected, exactley as the saints have now, but we never had the offensive aspect of that game style perfected, which I believe the saints do. We did have the odd game in those years were everything did go perfect offensively, like the thumping of Richmond at docklands one year, a couple of Brisbane thumpings like the one were kennely kicked that amazing goal after spinning out of a michael voss tackle at Homebush. Those few games show just how great that game style is when both the offensive nature of it and the defensive nature of it are perfected in a game. The reason why I believe Stkilda are able to perfect both aspects of this game style well and consistently and the swans were not able to is because of the players. Ross Lyon has introduced this game style to his players and if you think about it, these players are all high draft pick players executing the perfect game style, Reiwoldt, Hayes, Ball, Del Santo, Kozzy, Fischer, Goddard, Montagna(I'm sure theres others, I just cant think of any), and lets not forget Schneider as well. The swans players who executed this game style were not high draft pick players, they were middle of the road draft pick players(exception being Goodes, who I know didnt go high in his draft, but is as good as any high draft pick player out there today). And that is the real difference. Same game style, executed differently by different standard players, you could argue that it gets you the same result, the 4 premiership points, but you could also argue that it doesnt, one team delivers thumpings, and the other team delivers a win by 4 goals. The thing that annoys me is that people(footy journo's) wont be calling Stkilda game style 'ugly' because of the thumpings, when at the end of the day it is exactley the same game style, just better standard players doing it for better results. Your thoughts people.

Agree with your thoughts, but Schneider went IN THE 60'S. Still Ross knew what he needed and he took it.

[johnno]

Agree with your thoughts, but Schneider went IN THE 60'S. Still Ross knew what he needed and he took it.

Yep I can see how you would interpret me saying that Schneider went at a high draft pick, sorry that wasn't my intention when I put his name there. What I meant by "and lets not forget about Schneider" was that he was already accustomed to that game style, by having already played that particular game style at the swans, not that he went high in the draft. I was also going to put Dempster's name there too, but from what I can gather, he hasn't played that many games for the saints since going over. Sorry for the confusion.

[giant]

I reckon that list indicates that it is not the recycled players who have taken the Saints to where they currently are.

In contrast to the Saints, I reckon our "most important" 10 players would unquestionably include

- Bolton
- Hall
- Jolly

for sure. Arguably Mattner, due to his combination of pace and height, and based on the first 6 weeks, probably Shaw too, given how important his pace has been.

If you go back to our premiership team, Bolton and Hall were certainly critical components. Jolly maybe not so much back then. But you'd have to include Williams and Ball as top 10 important players in 2005, and almost certainly Davis too.

In contrast, I think only Gardiner and/or King are of similar importance to the Saints, and even that is questionable given that they've only been sporadically available since recruited due to injuries. Gardiner has, though, been important for them thus far in 2009.

Yeh, but Liz they had all these players in previous years and nothing to show for it. For mine, the biggest difference between this year's model Saints and prior years is their bottom 8 players - their stars have always been (on potential at least) as good as anyone's. But thru some very clever topping up and the vast improvement of some of their lesser lights (Gwilt, McQuilter, Jones etc), they are now a force (as well as copying the Swans' game plan and medical staff of course...).