The real problem is the midfield!

[bandwagon]

Problem seems to be finding anyone else even half capable of playing on the small, quick forwards.

Absolutely. This role is gaining more and more prominence in AFl teams - think Betts, Nahas, Rioli, Stokes, Thomas, Davey, etc. We need someone who can play on these type of player - like Crouch at his peak. But also I'd love to have a similar type player performing that role for us.

[bandwagon]

Score Sources.

Well, that tells a good story.

Our turnovers have been killing us all year. In some ways this is a consequence of having more young players, but it is the clangers from the experienced core that really make you hang your head. It's not just Bevo! We have very few players with consistently clean delivery.

[Mr Magoo]

The turnovers and quality of forward fifty entries was apparent even at the Richmond game and it is not just the midfield doing so.

I remember for example a couple of instances where we streamed out of defence heading to the randwick end and rather than use the ball early to a leading forward we kept bringing it and lost the chance to hit a forward and subsequently turned it over. I remember commenting that it if we did this next week Geelong would curcify us.

The second half of that game was really sloppy and really a precursor to our effort against Geelong. At the moment we simply dont have the overall class and confidence to trouble the top sides. You can tell that we play good teams in the hop we may get over them but almost as if we know an honourable loss would suffice. That may not be what the players are saying but it is apparent from the way they approach games. Some games they for periods of time look as good as their opposition or even much better (and we all drift back thinking we have a 2003 type breakout year coming ) but it doesnt take much for them to go back into their shells and all of a sudden look sloppy. The early quarters of the Geelong , St kilda and Richmond games are classic examples of this

It really can be a matter of six degrees of kevin Bacon between being really top class and one of the also rans. The West Coast example has to be the best example of that . Although we had only been beaten by a point, I couldnt forget how much everyone lauded that it was the start of a weagles dynasty.

Fast forward two years and really with the loss of only cousins and judd (but also matera, sampi, the fingerless one, gardner) , west coast are suddenly lower down the ladder and rebuilding for a tilt possibly in three years time probably at best.

in playing terms look at Schneider , he was really stagnating at the swans and yet he fits really well into the structure at St Kilda and again looks the type of player many thought he could be. At the end of the day though he is just a solid crumbing forward with limited midfield capability which at the moment isnt a worry in a team with class midfielders who deliver well to some good class forwards who are the same point in their careers that Hall and co were at in 2005 and 2006.

Depending on how well our next gen develop and our confidence therefore rises as a group we could be back in the mix before you know it or if they dont we could be in for a long drought before the next gen after that develops. After all it was almost ten years between really successful cycles for us last time (ie 1996 to 2005) in what has overall been considered a relatively successful period for us (finals appearace wise).

[ShockOfHair]

Our turnovers have been killing us all year. In some ways this is a consequence of having more young players, but it is the clangers from the experienced core that really make you hang your head. It's not just Bevo! We have very few players with consistently clean delivery.

Delivery, yes, and decision-making. The turnovers that happened and the opportunities missed on Sunday from taking the wrong option. Kicking to Baz when he's double-teamed, not kicking to Baz when he's got space, to name a couple. From senior blokes in particular.

And our kickins are tragic.

[Bear]

It's a fair point though. I like Jared Moore - he tries his guts out, but he's hardly built for speed, and speed = pressure.
There's no real speed at all on the forward line.

I don't think Moore has a natural position, or one he can make his own. He will be at the cross roads within 12 months.
And if I hear one more comparision to Greg Williams...

[chalbilto]

It's a fair point though. I like Jared Moore - he tries his guts out, but he's hardly built for speed, and speed = pressure.

Therefore we shouldn't expect him to play a la Rioli & Co. He has other attributes with a cleaver football brain and possesses a great kick to leading forwards. I would like to see him spend more time in the middle as an in and under player where I believe he would excel.

There's no real speed at all on the forward line.

Vezpremi will add speed to our forward line when he comes back.

[Bloody Hell]

Therefore we shouldn't expect him to play a la Rioli & Co. He has other attributes with a cleaver football brain and possesses a great kick to leading forwards. I would like to see him spend more time in the middle as an in and under player where I believe he would excel.

The comment was made with regard to forward line pressure, not goal scoring ability.

Vezpremi will add speed to our forward line when he comes back.

Don't think it's enough. Can't rely on one person, and he seems more of an offensively minded player.

[giant]

Last weekend's game is not a good exhibit A for the 'our midfield is crap' theory. We took on what is probably the best midfield in the league, even without Gazza Ablett, and basically tied with them on clearances (40:39).

And yet we got smashed in contested possessions 133:90. That's a symptom of poor disposal (and superior Geelong disposal) right around the ground, not just in the midfield. You don't get that kind of disparity when clearances are so even if the contested possession contests are 50:50 (like clearances are). They were largely weighted 40:60 or 30:70 against us because our disposal put the next player behind the eight-ball.

Simon, where did you get these contested possessions data from? I went looking for them thinking that we'd been smashed and the figures I saw suggested that it was much closer than your 133/90 (I'm now not certain where I found them but I will try to find it).

It's certainly seemed to me that in our last 3 games we've done much worse at clearances and cont poss than we would normally expect but the data didn't seem to support this view. Whatever the case, even w/o Kerr and Priddis we need to lift our intensity here if we're to beat the CRims on Saturday.

[SimonH]

Simon, where did you get these contested possessions data from? I went looking for them thinking that we'd been smashed and the figures I saw suggested that it was much closer than your 133/90 (I'm now not certain where I found them but I will try to find it).

It's certainly seemed to me that in our last 3 games we've done much worse at clearances and cont poss than we would normally expect but the data didn't seem to support this view. Whatever the case, even w/o Kerr and Priddis we need to lift our intensity here if we're to beat the CRims on Saturday.

Follow the links and then click on the 'Advanced Player Stats' tab. Herald Sun is the only (free) web site that I know of, that publishes them.

And for the record, vs Richmond was losing clearances 28:35 (losing clearances against Richmond?), losing contested possessions a whopping 101:134. vs Freo was getting smashed in clearances 47:58 and losing contested possessions more narrowly 114:125.

There is one confounding feature that makes contested possessions a potentially useless stat: hit your team-mate lace-out when he's metres in the clear, it's an uncontested possession. Put it a few feet wide of him, at his feet, out in front of him so that he is far more likely than anyone else to get to the ball first and take possession, but will be under the hammer when he does so, it presumably goes in the 'CP' column. That particular type of CP is something you want to avoid.

[sharp9]

I remember commenting that it if we did this next week Geelong would curcify us.

You mean the way I CURCIFY those white maggots every week!!

[Mr Magoo]

Slip of the keyboard but maybe something to do with my unconscious mind speaking out. My cursing is usually aimed at the umpires or our own ineptitude but in hindsight the only way of beating Geelong probably was by cursing them.

[BSA5]

Follow the links and then click on the 'Advanced Player Stats' tab. Herald Sun is the only (free) web site that I know of, that publishes them.

Backed up by afl.com.au as well, just so you know. It's also free. Probably the only thing the site is good for.

[Nico]

We don't win anywhere near our share of clean centre clearances. It is no point trying to lock it down for a secondary bounce because we don't have clean clearances at them either. That stat of 11.11 to 4.1 from turnovers is damning evidence of our inability to clear contests with clean posession. We scramble the ball from contests blindly, hence kicking to nothing, and our defensive mindset means we are mostly second to the ball and let the opposition off with easy possessions.

Shaw has to be in the middle with his pace and incredible stamina. He also reads the ball off the pack and the ruckman very well.

[Bloody Hell]

Didn't ROK look great in the midfield, contesting the centre bounces!

Even Bolton starting in the forward line addresses alot of the issues mentioned in this thread.

Good to see the coaches have finally gotten around to reading RWO!

[Darren Thomson]

Certainly in McVeigh and Bird you have the start of a more than capable, attacking minded midfield. Meredith one assumes will end up there as well and Veszpremi also. Goodes is always going to be a handful when he plays there.

But for now we are playing to our 'strengths' and the most consistent midfielders we have are Kirk and Bolton.

McVeigh's problem is that he now attracts the opposition's number one tagger. He looks to have the class to overcome it but there will be quiet days. Jude had similar issues when he was younger too as I recall.

I agree mostly here but I think when Vez comes back he will play HFF to allow ROK to move up the field, this is the best move Roosy has made in a while getting a quickish bloke with legs into the middle, nice long penetrating kick, and finds the target. I know this has been said before, our midfield is slow but mostly they are hard at it, Jude And Kirky leading the way, Moore needs another year, Jack is quick enough but we will struggle for talls, against Geelong we looked like midgets, but I would expect as the year goes on we will get better given the toughness of some of our blokes while the "soft tissue injury" sookies fall away