Demetriou - AFL to follow action of NRL re Salary Cap Breaches

[Matty10]

AFL backs NRL for hardline on salary cap cheating

Demetriou states that the AFL would also strip clubs of premierships if breaches were serious enough. I can't understand how that can work - or be of any benefit to the game. What does everyone think?

Punishments have to be doled out, but stripping clubs of premierships would just destroy the fabric of the competition. You can't have holes in the premiership list. At the end of the day it was 18 players against 18 out on the ground - that should stand - regardless of anything else. I like how they treated Carlton (except that they subsequently received priority picks).

[SwansFan1972]

AFL backs NRL for hardline on salary cap cheating

Demetriou states that the AFL would also strip clubs of premierships if breaches were serious enough. I can't understand how that can work - or be of any benefit to the game. What does everyone think?

Punishments have to be doled out, but stripping clubs of premierships would just destroy the fabric of the competition. You can't have holes in the premiership list. At the end of the day it was 18 players against 18 out on the ground - that should stand - regardless of anything else. I like how they treated Carlton (except that they subsequently received priority picks).

The issue is that the 18 would presumably have been different without the cheating, and may not have even qualified to be there.

If there is no threat to a club's history (by way of a huge punishment like stripping a flag), then an unscrupulous administrator is more likely to be tempted to gamble the future (which will be someone else's headache) to chase his own current glory. That said, even if they left it in the books so to speak, who would want to celebrate or reminisce about it anyway, knowing it was tainted?

The stripping of the premierships is largely symbolic. If you knew your team cheated to win the flag, then why would you ever want to think about it again - and certainly there would be no fond memories left to cherish.

The whole Storm situation is just a tragedy and shows how vulnerable any organisation can be to unscrupulous people. All any of us can do is hope and trust that the people running whatever club(s) we support across any code are doing the right thing.

[Matty10]

No-one breaks the rules thinking they will get caught. If someone was willing to gamble on the reputation of the club I am not sure any penalty would act as a deterrent.

Punishing the club is one thing, but I think the administrators of the AFL/NRL should perhaps keep their cards close to their chest for the good of the game and maybe not detail when breaches occurred. Having no premier named for any particular year punishes the competition.

Unless they wanted to be really brave and have the Grand Final loser play off against the Preliminary Finalist who lost to the disgraced team. That could work - I would go and watch the reallocation of the premiership match.

[SwansFan1972]

No-one breaks the rules thinking they will get caught. If someone was willing to gamble on the reputation of the club I am not sure any penalty would act as a deterrent.

Of course they don't, but thinking their dirty little secrets will never be revealed just shows they are stupid (as well as dishonourable and deceitful) and don't understand human nature.

Eventually someone from within the tent gets shafted somehow, and then they decide to piss into it, rather than out of it with the others. Then all hell breaks loose and here we (or the Storm) are!

There has to be a powerful deterrent - and yes, perhaps no punishment will prevent some from trying to cheat like this in the future - but at least they all now know that if they are revealed, then their professional life as they know it is pretty much over. With the opprobrium now headed his way, this Waldron jerk won't get a job flipping burgers anywhere in this country - assuming of course he manages to even stay out of jail - who knows what level of fraud may have taken place? At the very least, his professional career is in tatters (or it should be).

[AnnieH]

Dimwit should look at the AFL. Didn't the guy who ran the Storm run St Kilda at some stage?

[goswannie14]

Dimwit should look at the AFL. Didn't the guy who ran the Storm run St Kilda at some stage?

With the accusations about being powerful for so long, then both St Kilda and Geelong would have to be in the sights of investigators.

[AnnieH]

Of course they don't, but thinking their dirty little secrets will never be revealed just shows they are stupid (as well as dishonourable and deceitful) and don't understand human nature.

Eventually someone from within the tent gets shafted somehow, and then they decide to piss into it, rather than out of it with the others. Then all hell breaks loose and here we (or the Storm) are!

There has to be a powerful deterrent - and yes, perhaps no punishment will prevent some from trying to cheat like this in the future - but at least they all now know that if they are revealed, then their professional life as they know it is pretty much over. With the opprobrium now headed his way, this Waldron jerk won't get a job flipping burgers anywhere in this country - assuming of course he manages to even stay out of jail - who knows what level of fraud may have taken place? At the very least, his professional career is in tatters (or it should be).

Whistleblowers ... you just can't trust them!!

Must've REALLY been pissed off to blow the lid off that.

[Big Al]

AFL backs NRL for hardline on salary cap cheating

Demetriou states that the AFL would also strip clubs of premierships if breaches were serious enough. I can't understand how that can work - or be of any benefit to the game. What does everyone think?

Punishments have to be doled out, but stripping clubs of premierships would just destroy the fabric of the competition. You can't have holes in the premiership list. At the end of the day it was 18 players against 18 out on the ground - that should stand - regardless of anything else. I like how they treated Carlton (except that they subsequently received priority picks).

If a club wins a premiership by cheating then they don't deserve to be in the record books as Premiers. Would you let an Athlete keep the Gold medal if they were found cheating? I don't think so.

[Big Al]

What makes the Storms deceit even worse was the Bulldogs were caught and harshly dealt with so they must have known what would happen to them when they got caught. This level of cheating was NEVER going to be kept quiet.

I feel for Storms fans and any person in the Storm organisation that had no knowledge of what was going on. There the ones who would feel the most betrayed and gutted this morning.

[Matty10]

If a club wins a premiership by cheating then they don't deserve to be in the record books as Premiers. Would you let an Athlete keep the Gold medal if they were found cheating? I don't think so.

I suppose my point is that, if I was an AFL administrator, I would not want to let it get to that point. The books should be signed off - bank accounts checked etc - all by the end of round 22. If a breach is found and the club is stripped of points, arrests made etc - so be it. If a red flag pops up after round 22 (when there presumably would not be enough time to check it fully) I'd want it held over until the start of the next season and not have it interfere with the historical legacy of the competition, or the eventual premiership celebrations of that year. There might not be full public disclosure - so be it.

What the NRL have done has gutted their history - and it seems like very poor administration. Yes they were honest and bold, and they most likely acted in the best interests of their sport, but it has also been at the expense of their sport. It is all too late now. What do the history books now say - 2007 and 2009 were played for nothing - all teams penalised because one team was found cheating.

I would prefer they left history as it was - or they should play new matches for those premierships - you can't leave a giant hole like that in the history of your sport.

Did Carlton and Essendon breach the cap during the 90s - there have been rumours - well good luck to them if they did, it is too late now.

[SwansFan1972]

I suppose my point is that, if I was an AFL administrator, I would not want to let it get to that point. The books should be signed off - bank accounts checked etc - all by the end of round 22. If a breach is found and the club is stripped of points, arrests made etc - so be it. If a red flag pops up after round 22 (when there presumably would not be enough time to check it fully) I'd want it held over until the start of the next season and not have it interfere with the historical legacy of the competition, or the eventual premiership celebrations of that year. There might not be full public disclosure - so be it.

What the NRL have done has gutted their history - and it seems like very poor administration. Yes they were honest and bold, and they most likely acted in the best interests of their sport, but it has also been at the expense of their sport. It is all too late now. What do the history books now say - 2007 and 2009 were played for nothing - all teams penalised because one team was found cheating.

I would prefer they left history as it was - or they should play new matches for those premierships - you can't leave a giant hole like that in the history of your sport.

Did Carlton and Essendon breach the cap during the 90s - there have been rumours - well good luck to them if they did, it is too late now.

It is the Storm that has gutted its, and the league's, history - not the NRL. How is it poor administration? I think you'll find that the other clubs would be incensed if the Storm were to remain as premiers for those seasons, so what was the NRL supposed to do? Unless the NRL has the powers of Harry Potter and a really big crystal ball, how on earth would they know that a club CEO has been deliberately cheating? No doubt Waldron was reasonably careful about what he was doing - it has taken someone from the inner sanctum to turn over and crack it all open. Presumably if that person had been kept warm and comfortable, everything would have continued merrily along!

More significant than 'the history books' is that no Storm fan will ever be able to look back fondly on those premierships, which is surely the harshest punishment of all. Even if the titles were left in the books, who would want to celebrate them? They are at best the most hollow of victories, regardless of what the books say.

[Matty10]

You've highlighted the wrong points .

The initial blame for the breaches has to go against the club - no doubt, but the league has to take responsibility for not picking it up much sooner - or as it happened. Systems need to be in place. A policy of "we trust, you until you are caught" is not a good way to run an organisation of independent groups. They should have gotten actively involved sooner and checked everything out - at all clubs.

But the NRL weren't active enough in the auditing of the clubs. And now they have handed out punishments that could satisfy no-one. That is poor administration. I don't wan't the AFL to ever do the same - I would hope that they would ignore the past (or deal with it privately, or without full public disclosure if necessary), punish in the present, or moving forward (ala Carlton) and put systems in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.

[Big Al]

You've highlighted the wrong points .

The initial blame for the breaches has to go against the club - no doubt, but the league has to take responsibility for not picking it up much sooner - or as it happened. Systems need to be in place. A policy of "we trust, you until you are caught" is not a good way to run an organisation of independent groups. They should have gotten actively involved sooner and checked everything out - at all clubs.

But the NRL weren't active enough in the auditing of the clubs. And now they have handed out punishments that could satisfy no-one. That is poor administration. I don't wan't the AFL to ever do the same - I would hope that they would ignore the past (or deal with it privately, or without full public disclosure if necessary), punish in the present, or moving forward (ala Carlton) and put systems in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.

We'll agree to disagree on this but I hope to god that the AFL NEVER sweeps cheating under the carpet.

[SwansFan1972]

You've highlighted the wrong points .

The initial blame for the breaches has to go against the club - no doubt, but the league has to take responsibility for not picking it up much sooner - or as it happened. Systems need to be in place. A policy of "we trust, you until you are caught" is not a good way to run an organisation of independent groups. They should have gotten actively involved sooner and checked everything out - at all clubs.

But the NRL weren't active enough in the auditing of the clubs. And now they have handed out punishments that could satisfy no-one. That is poor administration. I don't wan't the AFL to ever do the same - I would hope that they would ignore the past (or deal with it privately, or without full public disclosure if necessary), punish in the present, or moving forward (ala Carlton) and put systems in place to ensure it doesn't happen again.

That isn't their approach at all. Audits are undertaken - but when you have the CEO of a club actively and purposefully lying and cheating, then the best auditor in the world is going to struggle to pick it up. If you have (or know of someone who does) the means to be so far ahead of the game, then give the NRL (and the AFL) a call - both would dearly love your services! I think you are putting an unrealistic burden on the NRL to be almost god-like and all knowing, which of course it can never be. The owners of the Storm had no idea for heaven's sake! And they (News Ltd) are hardly corporate novices - if they didn't know, then how on earth was the NRL supposed to? What other systems should be in place? The cap is there and is clear. They audit to a standard that would be common in most corporate structures. The rules and penalties approach is no different to how our whole world operates, yet there will always be people who act outside the system. It is why speedsters get tickets and murderers go to jail.

Of course prevention (or early detection) is better than cure (or punishment) - but it isn't so simple to achieve. If it was, there would have been no Pyramid, no HIH, no Enron, no Barclays, no Lehmann Bros etc etc ad infinitum. In years gone by I'd background all of them separately for reference, but in the current google age, researching any you may not know about is a click away. Corporate misbehaviour (which is what this essentially is, just that it involves sport and therefore much more passion than your average corporate failure) has been happening for years, outside laws and punishments well known to all.

While it would be wonderful to "put systems in place so it doesn't happen again" - it is an impossible standard to achieve. Until humanity achieves a perfect state of being, there will always need to be the threat of punishment to try and keep deviants in line, no matter how imperfect or unpalatable such punishments may be.

[Matty10]

That isn't their approach at all.

Maybe not, but that is what it amounted to in the end.

Audits are undertaken - but when you have the CEO of a club actively and purposefully lying and cheating, then the best auditor in the world is going to struggle to pick it up.

Your idea of an audit must be different from mine . Surely the whole point of an audit, particularly in this instance, is so that they (the governing body) can uncover when people are "actively and purposefully" lying and cheating, not simply to rubber stamp the books. Either the auditors were not given enough scope/access to NRL/Storm records, or they did a poor job - which I suppose is why the NRL have said they will investigate that process also - as many people are asking them the same questions that I have posed here.

Of course prevention (or early detection) is better than cure (or punishment) - but it isn't so simple to achieve. If it was, there would have been no Pyramid, no HIH, no Enron, no Barclays, no Lehmann Bros etc

Well part of the problem with those companies was with poor governance and corporate / government deregulation. But that is somewhat beside the point anyway as they are private companies only regulated to the point of least interference / burden - which is essentially all that the public has asked from them.

The NRL and the AFL have to hold clubs to a different standard (and be held to a different standard themselves) as they are the regulators of the salary cap itself. I do not think that is an unrealistic expectation to think that the AFL and NRL can enforce the salary cap.

Are you really suggesting that an acceptable form of salary cap governance is in place where any club can get away with rorting the system - provided that they do not come undone via a whistleblower?

It is part of the burden of responsibility that the AFL and NRL have systems in place where rorting of this kind is uncovered - if that means they need to go to the extent of monitoring the bank accounts of the players - then so be it.