Seaby vs Pyke

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  • Bloody Hell
    Senior Player
    • Oct 2006
    • 3085

    #61
    Originally posted by RTTF
    If all your friends decided to jump off the Sydney Harbour Bridge, would you do it? Are you a sheep?

    Ask a 1930's coach what he thinks of modern day paddocks, zones, flooding, waves & clusters etc etc.

    If you don't evolve, you're pretty much screwed.

    In 2010, you work within the system with the resources on hand and you need to innovate & do the unexpected to give you an edge.

    As crazy as it sounds (yes I admit to drinking far too much coffee today), but if Horse can find a way to deploy 3-4 mobile/versatile rucks to cover our deficiencies in KPPs (I'm sorry, how many I50 contested marks do we have for the year?) & pace so we can move the ball like lightning I50 then I say go for gold
    Yeah, because evolution turned out so well for the Dodo.

    The Kangaroos persisted with 3 ruckman for a couple of years. Finally decided it was a bad idea and have started climbing the ladder.
    The eternal connundrum "what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object" was finally solved when David Hasselhoff punched himself in the face.

    Comment

    • swansrule100
      The quarterback
      • May 2004
      • 4538

      #62
      Originally posted by Go Swannies
      The speed side of their game would be Pyke well in front then probably Mummy then Seaby so you're right bringing Seaby back at the expense of Pyke would produce a slower team.
      ill take the slightly slower seaby who can actually use a footy
      Theres not much left to say

      Comment

      • caj23
        Senior Player
        • Aug 2003
        • 2462

        #63
        Originally posted by dimelb
        Petrie, Jason Ball, Paul Salmon come to mind. Are there others?
        Petrie isn't a true ruckman and is signficantly more mobile than Seaby, he showed that on Sunday with his forward pressure even when hobbling on one foot

        Ball had one good season forward in the early 90's premiership team of the eagles, he was recruited to the Swans as a forward replacement for Plugger and failed dismally. It was only when Stafford lost form and he was moved to the ruck that he got his mojo back

        Salmon spent the bulk of his career in the ruck, and certainly finished off the latter part of his career there

        Lynch is a forward (and not a very good one), not a ruckman

        All of these examples are flawed. Simple fact is in the modern game teams can't afford to play a ruckman as a permanent forward as they are unable to provide the forward pressure required and good backmen will run off them too much

        Comment

        • Go Swannies
          Veterans List
          • Sep 2003
          • 5697

          #64
          Originally posted by Will Sangster
          Simple fact is in the modern game teams can't afford to play a ruckman as a permanent forward as they are unable to provide the forward pressure required and good backmen will run off them too much
          So that's why it isn't working out for Goodes? We haven't completely removed the ruckman gene.

          Comment

          • aardvark
            Veterans List
            • Mar 2010
            • 5685

            #65
            Kreuzer, Ryder, Ottens and Hille are all ruckmen who play forward and don't have issues with backmen running off them. Why not Seaby ? It would be better than what we have at the moment.
            Last edited by aardvark; 13 July 2010, 10:48 AM.

            Comment

            • caj23
              Senior Player
              • Aug 2003
              • 2462

              #66
              Originally posted by aardvark
              Kreuzer, Ryder, Ottens and Hille are all ruckmen who play forward and don't have issues with backmen running off them. Why not Seaby ? It would be better than what we have at the moment.
              None of them play as permanent forwards which is what is being suggested, nor do any of these teams play with 3 ruckman

              Kreuzer has probably spent the most time there but he is young and his body is still developing so the Blues want to shield him from the ruck where they can. He is also very mobile.

              Ryder is a makeshift ruckman in the Goodes mould, if they play him there for his whole career they will wreck him. I personally think he's best suited to CHB.

              Ottens does rest forward but I recall the Cats dropping Mumford for last years finals series and playing 2 ruckman, not 3. Why do you think that is?

              Hille had a couple of decent games foward but he isn't a long term solution there.

              Comment

              • Go Swannies
                Veterans List
                • Sep 2003
                • 5697

                #67
                I think we are looking at Pyke in a very limited way and the club may not be. If you decided to take on a foreign athlete who knew nothing about the game but was keen and fit it's pretty fair to look at him and say "well you can't do anything around the ground till you understand the game and you're tall so we'll play you in the ruck. That's simple - tap the ball to a shorter bloke in red and white." Surprisingly, he picked up the game fast, we had ruck injuries and we dropped him in there and he played well. He's become a very good ruckman, measured by hitouts.

                However, the team was trying him in other positions last year and had not worked out how to use him best. The crunch will come when Seaby is fit again. We will have three good players (if Pyke keeps improving) and it'd be tempting to fit all of them into the team. Right now we don't have a forward line. Goodes (hopefully) has gone and Jesse hasn't lifted but has fallen back instead. Long term I hope Jesse becomes our new Baz. In the interim, playing one of our spare ruckman as a forward couldn't be bad. Unless we want to base Ted there permanently or run a short gaggle of forwards like Carlton.

                The speed that Pyke has learned how to follow the instruction "jump, tap" suggests that it'd be interesting to see if that could be extended to "run fast. catch ball. kick goal". He'd get so towelled up against a decent defender in the first few games - but he wasn't much of a ruckman at the start either.

                Comment

                • aardvark
                  Veterans List
                  • Mar 2010
                  • 5685

                  #68
                  Originally posted by Will Sangster
                  None of them play as permanent forwards which is what is being suggested, nor do any of these teams play with 3 ruckman

                  Kreuzer has probably spent the most time there but he is young and his body is still developing so the Blues want to shield him from the ruck where they can. He is also very mobile.

                  Ryder is a makeshift ruckman in the Goodes mould, if they play him there for his whole career they will wreck him. I personally think he's best suited to CHB.

                  Ottens does rest forward but I recall the Cats dropping Mumford for last years finals series and playing 2 ruckman, not 3. Why do you think that is?

                  Hille had a couple of decent games foward but he isn't a long term solution there.
                  So you have a choice between Seaby, Playfair and Richards for CHF this week. Who gets the nod ?

                  Comment

                  • caj23
                    Senior Player
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 2462

                    #69
                    Originally posted by aardvark
                    So you have a choice between Seaby, Playfair and Richards for CHF this week. Who gets the nod ?
                    If you're suggesting these 3 are all fit and available and my only options, Seaby in the 22 Pyke out, Richards plays as a lead up CHF.

                    Seaby/Mumford spend time resting deep in the forward line (not CHF) or on the bench

                    Not how I'd structure it but you've given me extremely limited options

                    Comment

                    • australian_made
                      Bandwagon Driver
                      • Sep 2005
                      • 235

                      #70
                      An interesting debate.

                      Seaby would have to come back into the side when fit, no question about it.

                      Pyke is fast becoming a sentimental favourite for me so it would be sad to see him dropped when he is in reasonable form, but team structure may call for it. It would be good to see him develop into a utility player as i liked the way he got to the ball on the weekend and created a contest that may not have been there otherwise.

                      On the long term debate: i think he is a valuable member of our ruck division and it would be wise to retain him as a back up, given the injury curse of the ruck position. I also think that other teams would look at him too if he goes on the market, as insurance. People probably laughed when the Hawks picked up Skipper, ditto with Pattison at the Saints, but clubs know that you can never have too many spare ruckmen on the list. And from our insurance point of view where would be this season if we didnt have him when Seaby went down? Pyke is certianly a better ruckman than Jesse, LRT or Ted.
                      If the siren sounds in Tasmania, and the umpires don't hear it, does it make a sound?

                      Comment

                      • Hartijon
                        On the Rookie List
                        • May 2008
                        • 1536

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Go Swannies
                        I think we are looking at Pyke in a very limited way and the club may not be. If you decided to take on a foreign athlete who knew nothing about the game but was keen and fit it's pretty fair to look at him and say "well you can't do anything around the ground till you understand the game and you're tall so we'll play you in the ruck. That's simple - tap the ball to a shorter bloke in red and white." Surprisingly, he picked up the game fast, we had ruck injuries and we dropped him in there and he played well. He's become a very good ruckman, measured by hitouts.

                        However, the team was trying him in other positions last year and had not worked out how to use him best. The crunch will come when Seaby is fit again. We will have three good players (if Pyke keeps improving) and it'd be tempting to fit all of them into the team. Right now we don't have a forward line. Goodes (hopefully) has gone and Jesse hasn't lifted but has fallen back instead. Long term I hope Jesse becomes our new Baz. In the interim, playing one of our spare ruckman as a forward couldn't be bad. Unless we want to base Ted there permanently or run a short gaggle of forwards like Carlton.

                        The speed that Pyke has learned how to follow the instruction "jump, tap" suggests that it'd be interesting to see if that could be extended to "run fast. catch ball. kick goal". He'd get so towelled up against a decent defender in the first few games - but he wasn't much of a ruckman at the start either.
                        You raise an interesting point.Could Pyke be a KPP?? This sugestion,laughable a year ago is not so impossible now. I also feel that its a real tempting prospect with the return of Seaby .We have a real makeshift forward line now. Mike can mark and kick and is fast.What about an old fashioned FF? One in the Podsialy mould run ,mark,kick,??? Or am i just dreaming?

                        Comment

                        • Peace
                          On the Rookie List
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 598

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Hartijon
                          You raise an interesting point.Could Pyke be a KPP?? This sugestion,laughable a year ago is not so impossible now. I also feel that its a real tempting prospect with the return of Seaby .We have a real makeshift forward line now. Mike can mark and kick and is fast.What about an old fashioned FF? One in the Podsialy mould run ,mark,kick,??? Or am i just dreaming?
                          It's definitely not out of the question in a year or two! He has a great set of hands and can kick the ball but just needs more confidence.

                          Comment

                          • caj23
                            Senior Player
                            • Aug 2003
                            • 2462

                            #73
                            Originally posted by Peace
                            It's definitely not out of the question in a year or two! He has a great set of hands and can kick the ball but just needs more confidence.
                            Yep, I'd be happy in the next stage of his development for him to be tried as a key forward, particularly with the expectation (fingers crossed) that we get full seasons out of Seaby and Mummy next year.

                            Comment

                            • aardvark
                              Veterans List
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 5685

                              #74
                              Pyke certainly has the makings of a CHF and he looks like he's just going to get better and better. I'd still prefer Seaby at CHF to Richards but thats probably why i'm not a selector

                              Comment

                              • swansrule100
                                The quarterback
                                • May 2004
                                • 4538

                                #75
                                Originally posted by aardvark
                                Pyke certainly has the makings of a CHF and he looks like he's just going to get better and better. I'd still prefer Seaby at CHF to Richards but thats probably why i'm not a selector
                                at the risk of sounding like a pyke basher the man has taken 23 marks for his entire career and kicked one goal, how has he got the makings of a CHF?
                                Theres not much left to say

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