Structures What the ?

[Go Swannies]

If you look at it from a purely generalistic viewpoint , we and Horse are actually travelling quite well for a team that has no structure, no plan b , no improvement from anyone and hopeless match day tactics. We have only been beaten by the geelong , carlton and hawthorn, we have won close games against teams that everyone is so impressed by ( West coast at home , something we didnt even do much in our good years, Essendon when they were totally entranced by the God Hird and everyone was predicting top four , Northe Melbourne at the start of a run that everyone is now predicting will see them in the eight) and we have done it for some weeks without our B&F from last year, a woeful goal accuracy, our number one ruckman injured and a 19 year old centre half forward in his first season in the senior ranks.

This. And Ugg's very sensible response.

I'm as down after a loss as anyone - my wife has a footy app so she knows what mood I'll come home in. And the Blues was an awful game for every Swans supporter (just as last years's was for Blues supporters). But we're travelling better than we should expect for the rebuilt we are doing.

Also there were some negative comments about Kieren's pre game "we have nothing to lose" approach. He's dead right - noone expects the team to win this one so they may as well just go for it. Ideally they'll give the Pies a fright and in my fantasies the Swans roar out of the blocks and the Pies never overhaul them. The previous generation Swans used to win some unexpected games on their way to a Premiership. That's largely stopped, except in finals, and it needs to happen again to be contenders. I'm optimistic enough to have tipped us this week (but not by much). Jesse to kick six and Goodes to run amok in the midfield.

[caj23]

Cheers Ugg and Mr Magoo, I forgot to invite other posters to respond as well as I'm really interested to hear from those who might be able to see something I can't

Personally I've been really frustrated this year as the gap between the top 4 and ourselves has widened significantly after I thought we closed it a little last year.

I'll be interested to see how we go against the Pies on Saturday night. I predict that the game will be a carbon copy of what we've served up against them under Roos, hopefully that won't be the case

[dimelb]

A series of balanced, thoughtful and insightful posts.
And I think we could probably add Pyke to the list of improvers.

[Untamed Snark]

A series of balanced, thoughtful and insightful posts.
And I think we could probably add Pyke to the list of improvers.

Also Shaw.

Ugg & Mr. Magoo make very good points.

Realistically we are not doing too badly; we have lost two players we entered the season expecting to have, we are playing without Kirk-a man who could rally the dead to get up and have another go, we have been playing the shiny newbies (and worn the new car smell off others) and we have a new coach-who no matter how well known he is to the team will still have an adjustment period to get through.
There are areas to work on, there always will be. But we are really not doing all that badly-any other team would be floundering in the bottom 4, but then any other team does not have the same ethos the Swans do

[Mr Magoo]

Dont worry , I am as annoyed that we cant seem to crack the top sides as anyone , i do think we really lack a quality goal scoring forward , I am dissapointed that White hasnt fulfilled my hopes of him becoming that forward and watching the carlton game was simply painful but if you step back its not all that bad. We have been winning the close games and we have been able to experiment and tinker with a lot or relatively experienced players.

[Hartijon]

Longmire

I can't think of any reason why we should not be judging Longmire.To say he is just 12 weeks into his senior career is overlooking the years of experience at senior level with Roosey and the clear period last year where Roosey gave him more game day responsibility.So he is not a novice!Don't compare him to a 12 game coach.

Secondly we have a good list. 3-4 excellent big men if you rate Currie, superb defence and a mostly young and dynamic midfield.A rising star and a J.Kennedy backed by hardened experienced players. We have potentially a good servicable forward line that unfortunately has never been allowed to settle.

Like many fans ,I was expecting a step up from last year to a top 4 side.Of course the coach can be called to account .They are not a protected species. I would love to hear some explanation of

1.Clear overuse of Mumford risking and getting injury
2. Jetta's Gold pass and TDL's pass stamped no entry
3. What is the Forward structure? How does it work to kick goals?
4.Why is Everitt preferred to LJ and TDL?
5.What plan do we have to win by outscoring the opposition

I thank Horse for playing the kids although I think LJ is stiff and TDL...well maybe he gets injured a lot.

[ugg]

Sure go ahead and judge him, but please balance your arguments. I just find it hard to believe that so many people can't find many positives about his tenure so far. That would indicate a significant prejudice against Horse and short of sitting top of the table, nothing was ever going please these critics.

[ScottH]

Sure go ahead and judge him, but please balance your arguments. I just find it hard to believe that so many people can't find many positives about his tenure so far. That would indicate a significant prejudice against Horse and short of sitting top of the table, nothing was ever going please these critics.

+1.

New coach , New Players, No Forwards and we're still a top 8 team.

[sharp9]

The main thing wrong with the team was made beautifully clear by the Carlton game....100% encompassed by one stat....uncontested possession 215 to 175. It was actually worse than that because our lot includes lots of uncontested possessions that did not go forward (or lead directly to going forward). Carlton destroyed us because when they got the ball they could see a player IN SPACE ahead of them (generally speaking) and we could not. Not only that but the Carlton player in possession was generally not under much pressure.

When we got the ball we were nearly always under pressure...and even when not, could not see a player in space ahead to kick or handball to. Thus endeth the lesson.

The only way for us to beat top teams is to turn this around and the solution, I'm afraid, new players because the current ones are not able to spread effectively at all. ....and neither are they able to stop other teams from spreading beautifully. Well maybe you can teach some of those old dogs exactly which tricks we ant to see! It really is time for a complete rebuild based on the mantra...."How do we get the ball forward to a man in space?". Obviously skills have to improve as well...but gee it's amazing how often having a decent free target to kick to will help!

Looking longer term we need to build a modern team and we have plenty of players to start with...Half backs who CAN or COULD really move and attack - Johnson, Smith, Shaw, Grundy, Malceski, Heath...then there are the inside players who can get the ball to a man in space....Kennedy, Parker, Bird, Bolton....Men who can be that receiver and use it....Rohan, Lamb, Meredith, Hannebery, McGlynn. Then there are 3 players in Goodes, Jack and Sumner who could be SPECIAL in that they have the ability to be inside and outside players in the same possession...line breakers in other words...and should be our answer the likes of Judd, Murphy, Swan, Pendlebury, Ablett etc, etc.

You'll notice some names missing...Richards and LRT might continue to be stoppers but we're not holding our breath for them to be Harry O'Brien. Tadgh is finished. Mattner is defending OK but there's bugger all forward drive. ROK, Jetta and McVeigh should be receiving and delivering all day but they are currently failing spectacularly. Don't know if its the players or the coaching but they are just not getting the ball in space very often. Possibly they are going into the stoppages too much in an effort to stop the opposition from getting the clearance. FAIL. And when the opposition do get a clearance our outriders are sucked in leaving opposition men free!!! DOUBLE FAIL!!!!

Reid, White, TDL and Johnstone are all players who understand how to get free to receive across half forward. And Mummy's not bad either. Seaby has looked OK and Pike can definitely get better at this. Surely we can build something on these guys!!

Unfortunately Horse is not trying to build a modern team, as far as I can tell. Bevo is back...which tells you everything you need to know.

[caj23]

Sure go ahead and judge him, but please balance your arguments. I just find it hard to believe that so many people can't find many positives about his tenure so far. That would indicate a significant prejudice against Horse and short of sitting top of the table, nothing was ever going please these critics.

I don't think this is an entirely accurate comment Ugg. In fact if you go back an re-read your own post, your list of positives is paper thin.

Last year we were a kick away from a Preliminary Final, had we won that we would have been a chance the following week against the Saints. Admittedly we had Bradshaw back for the finals, but C Bolton can't be considered a loss as he only played a handful of games, and as much as I love Kirky his output was significantly reduced come the business end of the season, so the change in personnel hasnt been significant.

That gap with the top 4 is now significantly wider and unless there is a signifcant turnaround in the 2nd half of the season, we are going to be finals fodder.

I don't think the following would be unreasonable expectations of Longmire in 2011:

That the gameplan be altered so that we do something more than simply try to contain the opposition as the last few seasons has proven that we cannot crack the top 4 with it (and Saints have proven that you can't win the flag with it as well). Fail

That there is some consistency and structure with the forward line. Fail

That young players be given some game time in the seniors. Pass

That we fully utilise our best player in Adam Goodes to get the best out of him for the team. Fail

That we see some development in the younger members of our squad. Borderline

Most importantly, we see some overall improvement in the team in 2011 so that we are a realistic chance for a top 4 spot. Fail

Geelong have introduced just as many youngsters as we have this year and it hasn't affected their position on the ladder so i dont think calling 2011 a development year holds water.

Quite simply I don't define success as finishing 5th - 8th on the ladder, if we are satisfied with that then we are satisfied with mediocraty. The sole aim is to try and win a premiership every season and to have a chance at this you need to be in the top 4. I think it is pretty clear that we are a long way off that.

[Lucky Knickers]

This is a really enjoyable thread. It's great to see the variety of views and horses for courses (pardon puns and all that).

I hope some unhappy with the non-selection of TDL give some consideration to his fitness level and a selection policy driven by the sub rule change. This year I have made a concerted effort to attend the reserves when they are Sydney and he does not look to be match fit. When he has been subbed off against Lions and Tigers (that made me laugh) he is cramping and looks to be lacking aerobic fitness as is badly sucking in air when he comes off. I know everyone is getting tired in the 3rd/4th but the rest of team aren't looking completely banjaxed .
Is having a semi-fit skinny specialist half-forward worrying if we copped an injury early? Also, how does having him on, in his present state, impact rotations for the resting midfielders?
I don't mind that he is going back to reserves when we are playing against the top 4 if he is building his fitness base. Surely this means he will be back to his best and available in the latter rounds.

The comparison with Geelong is interesting. They have a core group of A grade elite midfielders in Bartel, Kelly and Selwood. Thankfully for them they have an A grade strong spine in Pods, Ottens, Scarlett, Taylor as well. Add to that Lonergan, Chappie, Stevie J etc and that is a strong, mature, hardened team who know what you need to do to win. They also have a magnificent Captain in Ling, whose output like Kirky is starting to reduce but is the glue that binds a winning team together. They have a lovely balance and remind me of us in 05/06. Young kids are going to shine when you are surrounded by that class.

I love our team but our skill and experience does not fairly compare.

A couple of examples to draw that comparison would be Goodes; our only A grader who is playing like an A grader consistently at the moment. ROK and Reggie are finding form and warming up, Kennelly been good (and a little bad), Melcho is probably in 3rd gear. I have no doubt that Hanners, JPK and Jack are going to become A grade but they aren't there yet.

I think Horse has utilised Goodes as best he can. With the lack of a mature and dominant full forward using Goodes to get forward and provide a strong marking target as a foil for Reid is desperately needed. Without him rotating through there, Reid would be 1 against 3. White needs to suck it up and deliver this weekend because the team need him to contribute at the senior level. I sincerely hope his instruction is to smash everything in his path with McGlynn and McVeigh at his feet. I'm actually really looking forwarded to seeing him and Sammy in action tomorrow.

As for the rest of our forward line it is unsettled but I can't really see a way through that without the experimentation we are going through. Our options are all very young and won't deliver the consistency week in week out you see in the Top 4.
Oh for a fit Gary Rohan.

I'm surprised at the view that the development of our young members is rated borderline. I think when you review over the entire squad the improvement has been really good in the 1-3 year players and the likes of Seaby, Bevo and Moore are holding their form.

Hanners is a man now. Just go back watch a game from 2010. I did this on the weekend. I pulled out the Brett Kirk Farewell game against the doggies and the change in him physically is marked and his form in recent weeks has been outstanding showing he can work through and manage the closer attention he has got from the opposition. I do think Jetta is a much more confident player and does good things. Agree that he needs to work on doing them more frequently. His sub effort against North really helped give us a spark I think. Alex Johnson and Sam Reid are everything you would want. Nathan Gordon and Luke Parker certainly didn't disgrace themselves in their seniors appearances and the redoubtable Mr Smith is nothing short of miraculous.

The real shame is that the sub-rule appears to have put a severe hurdle in the way of Moore being a regular in the seniors. I know there are many that don't rate him as a senior player but he has been a very strong leader in the forward line organising everything, however, his aerobic capacity is a liability with only 21 players to rotate and he isn't really the player suited as a sub. I didn't feel he was able to have that impact in the Dogs game that we gott from Rohan, Jetta (against North).

The area that I find disappointing as mentioned above is the selection and management of our rucks but I can see that this is challenging for many teams. Looking at the success that WCE and Pies are having with their combo's, I can see why they are experimenting with LRT and looking to White this weekend. Pyke, who was really offering us some flexibility and mobility, is the a significant out as many have said on various threads. Add his name to the top of the list of development.

Of course winning the premiership is the definition of success and agree that we are aren't in the ball-park right now but there are still many positives. Yes there are challenges and hurdles, some of which Longmire can influence and some he can't. On balance I think the Longmire ledger is in the black given as many have said our ladder position and performances given the forward structure.

Get that forward line settled and grown up a bit with a fit list to pick from and the competition had better watch out. Had we had C Bolts and Bradshaw fit for the finals in 2010 I thought we were a good shot of enjoying September glory.

Those demmed fickle footy gods. I sense their eyes are turning further South!

[dimelb]

I can't see the point in criticising Horse. Things could be a LOT worse!
Andrew Gigacz - same bloke who had Fun With Names - has done an alternate ladder based on the not-too-remote possibility that the close games, decided by 11 points or less, only needed one goal the other way to change the result. Here's what it looks like (and it's not yet available online):
The If-Only Ladder
Collingwood 44
Hawthorn 36
Carlton 34
West Coast 32
North 32
Geelong 28
Essendon 26
St Kilda 26
Bulldogs 24
Richmond 22
Fremantle 20
Brisbane Lions 20
Melbourne 18
Adelaide 16
Sydney 14
Port 12
Gold Coast 0

[albrotha]

Hope we beat collingwood by a point this week that could then be counted as another on the IF ONLY ladder. Would prefer a bigger margin but one point will be just fine.

[Hartijon]

On the + side we could be the Pies look alike side Forwards in a few years

Cloke could become White
Brown could become Pyke
Didak could become Lamb
LJ could become Dawes

Ot maybe I am dreaming?

[chammond]

I don't think this is an entirely accurate comment Ugg. In fact if you go back an re-read your own post, your list of positives is paper thin.

Last year we were a kick away from a Preliminary Final, had we won that we would have been a chance the following week against the Saints. Admittedly we had Bradshaw back for the finals, but C Bolton can't be considered a loss as he only played a handful of games, and as much as I love Kirky his output was significantly reduced come the business end of the season, so the change in personnel hasnt been significant.

That gap with the top 4 is now significantly wider and unless there is a signifcant turnaround in the 2nd half of the season, we are going to be finals fodder.

I don't think the following would be unreasonable expectations of Longmire in 2011:

That the gameplan be altered so that we do something more than simply try to contain the opposition as the last few seasons has proven that we cannot crack the top 4 with it (and Saints have proven that you can't win the flag with it as well). Fail

That there is some consistency and structure with the forward line. Fail

That young players be given some game time in the seniors. Pass

That we fully utilise our best player in Adam Goodes to get the best out of him for the team. Fail

That we see some development in the younger members of our squad. Borderline

Most importantly, we see some overall improvement in the team in 2011 so that we are a realistic chance for a top 4 spot. Fail

Geelong have introduced just as many youngsters as we have this year and it hasn't affected their position on the ladder so i dont think calling 2011 a development year holds water.

Quite simply I don't define success as finishing 5th - 8th on the ladder, if we are satisfied with that then we are satisfied with mediocraty. The sole aim is to try and win a premiership every season and to have a chance at this you need to be in the top 4. I think it is pretty clear that we are a long way off that.

Your basic premise, that the team is going backwards, doesn't seem to hold water. Our performance to date is very similar to last year: we've done okay against all but the top four. Compared to the Saints and Bulldogs, we've improved radically. Compared to Hawthorn and Carlton we've gone backwards, and compared to Collingwood and Geelong we're about the same.

Our defence is still rock solid. Our midfield still tackles hard and plays some of the best contested footy in the comp. The big difference that I can see is that we can't beg borrow or steal a goal, and that was just as obvious in round 1 as it is now.

I agree with you that Horse appears to have taken every opportunity to give the youngsters, and there has been a gradual improvement in the youngsters.

I don't agree that Horse hasn't changed the gameplan. I've only seen two games live this season, Melbourne and Carlton, and there was a huge difference in the approach. Round 1 was basically the Roos' formula with slightly more emphasis on getting the ball forward and less on running out of defence. Round 13, the forward structure was much taller and the strategy was to get the ball forward as fast as possible and take a mark. The tactic was undone by abominable kicking for goal, and by Carlton's ability to spoil the mark and then rebound quickly. Essentially, our small half-forwards were not able to negate their small half-backs.

It's certainly true that Horse has failed to find consistency and structure in the forward line, but it's hardly from want of trying. However, our forward group is probably no worse than Carlton's was at this time last year, and the Blues seem to have resolved their goal-kicking issues through sheer persistence.

As far as I can see the only fundamental difference between our performances in 2010 and 2011 has been the kicking for goal. We're still generating plenty of forward 50 entries. If we could just take a mark and kick a goal, the distance to the top four would narrow very quickly.