Is talent over rated ?

[Hartijon]

I was 5'10" and a rover in the late 70's in a good team. I used to love resting in the forward pocket and outmarking my backpocket opposition who was usually a smaller but nuggety heavier type. I guess I was a wannabe FF as I enjoyed those goals more than the crumbs or the ones while on the ball.

[wolftone57]

I was 5'10" and a rover in the late 70's in a good team. I used to love resting in the forward pocket and outmarking my backpocket opposition who was usually a smaller but nuggety heavier type. I guess I was a wannabe FF as I enjoyed those goals more than the crumbs or the ones while on the ball.

Lethal is 5'10" and he was 15 stone at playing weight. Very unusual rover

[Big Al]

Lethal is 5'10" and he was 15 stone at playing weight. Very unusual rover

That was my playing weight as well.





Unlike my u/9 team mates!

[wolftone57]

That was my playing weight as well.






Unlike my u/9 team mates!

Good one Al! Did you break any goalposts along the way? Shirtfront a few 6'6" bruisers, although in the U 9's they would have been the umpires

[Hartijon]

Lethal is 5'10" and he was 15 stone at playing weight. Very unusual rover

Please don't compare anything about Lethal with me! He was an awesome rover and once he hit you ,you stayed hit!He ended a few careers because he hit the big guys lower down.Imagine getting hit by 15 stone around the lower back,kidneys region! Awesome,scary guy!

[goswannie14]

I could have sworn Lethal was 6', I met him once and I thought he was my height., Oh well, what's a couple of inches......

[wolftone57]

Please don't compare anything about Lethal with me! He was an awesome rover and once he hit you ,you stayed hit!He ended a few careers because he hit the big guys lower down.Imagine getting hit by 15 stone around the lower back,kidneys region! Awesome,scary guy!

I agree and so would Peter Moore. I remember Lethal shirtfronting him on the left wing and as Moore went down Lethal stole the ball bounced it a couple of times and kicked a goal. The ball went from Moore's hands to Lethal's and didn't even hit the ground. Moore didn't move.

[ROK Lobster]

I know it is a different sport, but I think that David Warner has just shown that the answer to this question is "no". Overwhelmingly "no".

All achievements at the top end of spot are a combination of a serious amount of hard work and a serious amount of talent. But a display of talent, pure bloody talent, is far more exhilarating than a display of hard work.

That's why I will pull out a DVD of Davo's 4th qtr v the Cats before I will watch a DVD of a Jude Bolton 15 tackle game. Both efforts win footy matches, but one is HEAPS more fun to watch than the other.

[Xie Shan]

For the Moneyball fans: if talent is so important, then why wasn't Billy Beane more successful as a professional baseball player?

(The short answer is that the baseball scouts were bad at picking the players who were most likely to make use of their talent, since talent by itself, as good as it is, is nothing without application and motivation)

The thing about Davo's 4th qtr v the Cats is that no one is saying for a minute that Jude Bolton or Brett Kirk could have done what he did, but each of his goals were themselves the product of hard work, application and determination. The will to elude several Cats defenders at the stoppage to snap a goal over his shoulder from 40+ metres out, on tired, last-quarter legs. The skill to read the flight of the ball and position himself to take a chest mark against three defenders. The composure to execute those sublime skills under immense pressure.

An example:

You are directing a high school musical. You are holding auditions to cast the female lead. There are two clear stand-outs, who are vocally far superior to any of the other girls who tried out for the role. However, despite her powerful voice, one of the two standouts is often late to rehearsal, is out of shape and will need a significant amount of extra coaching with the choreography for the musical. In addition, other students and teachers have complained about her negative attitude. The other girl never misses a rehearsal, is highly motivated and practices every day. True, the other students find her annoying, and often resent her for getting all the good parts, but when questioned, they all freely acknowledge her work ethic, and when she led her school's team to victory in the previous year's show choir championships, she was unanimously voted the competition's MVP by her teammates. Which girl would you choose?

[BSA5]

For the Moneyball fans: if talent is so important, then why wasn't Billy Beane more successful as a professional baseball player?

(The short answer is that the baseball scouts were bad at picking the players who were most likely to make use of their talent, since talent by itself, as good as it is, is nothing without application and motivation)

The thing about Davo's 4th qtr v the Cats is that no one is saying for a minute that Jude Bolton or Brett Kirk could have done what he did, but each of his goals were themselves the product of hard work, application and determination. The will to elude several Cats defenders at the stoppage to snap a goal over his shoulder from 40+ metres out, on tired, last-quarter legs. The skill to read the flight of the ball and position himself to take a chest mark against three defenders. The composure to execute those sublime skills under immense pressure.

An example:

You are directing a high school musical. You are holding auditions to cast the female lead. There are two clear stand-outs, who are vocally far superior to any of the other girls who tried out for the role. However, despite her powerful voice, one of the two standouts is often late to rehearsal, is out of shape and will need a significant amount of extra coaching with the choreography for the musical. In addition, other students and teachers have complained about her negative attitude. The other girl never misses a rehearsal, is highly motivated and practices every day. True, the other students find her annoying, and often resent her for getting all the good parts, but when questioned, they all freely acknowledge her work ethic, and when she led her school's team to victory in the previous year's show choir championships, she was unanimously voted the competition's MVP by her teammates. Which girl would you choose?

What's your point? Nobody has claimed that hard work isn't important. Both talent AND hard work are required to make it, whatever you do. To a certain extent, you can make up for a lack of talent with hard work (e.g. Kirk, though he was still pretty damn talented), or can make up for a lack of hard work with talent (e.g. Nick Davis, though as you point out, he could still work hard).

To use ROK Lobster's Warner analogy, Warner is a hugely talented batsman, but until recently, was basically stuck playing T20 stuff, despite always wanting to play Test cricket, because he hadn't put in the work. His net sessions amounted to 20 minutes of slogging, and while he was happy to plunder grade attacks, he wasn't working hard enough to get the call up to NSW, let alone Australia. A chat with Sehwag later, and he realised he needs to work harder on his batting, for longer. Now his net sessions last hours, he rarely skips optional sessions, and he ensures he gets his eye in before he goes full throttle. As a result, we get to see innings like we just saw today, in which his overwhelming TALENT was allowed to flourish by his HARD WORK. Without the hard work, the talent would have been for nothing, but without the talent, the hard work would have been for nothing.

The point is that talent is DEFINITELY a major requirement, and not at all overrated. Just that maybe hard work is occasionally underrated.

[Auntie.Gerald]

So we all know that deep long term practice plus some above average dexterity is a great combo for giving you a great chance to be successful

So how do we explain Simon Katich vs say Brett Kirk?

Simon Katich was averaging 48 (same as Michael Clarke) in Test cricket and a very consistent performer..........a very important part of Australia laying down an opening foundation but was dropped at the height of his game and still has a few years more in him !

Brett Kirk was no regarded at all under Rocket and if Rocket stayed on a season or more we would have never seen Brett Kirk make it ?

So by Michael Clark becoming captain Katich looses out in a very unfair manor and by Roo's joining and Rocket leaving we have a very average footballer get a fork in the road that contributes significantly to the making of a champion?

So for me natural ability is important - yes there was always kids at say primary school who demonstrated remarkable speed or distance running without any extra training............then in high school there was kids who thru shear determined training 5 days a week became state level swimmers or runner etc...........BUT

to be able to pick who will be successful over a long period is almost impossible - coaching, opportunity, player recruitment, management, talent identification, culture, money, vision etc etc all come into the miraculous events that can lead to success or non success !

another great book below on the circumstances that have to align for the seldom few to rise to the top is below !

gladwell dot com - the 10,000 hour rule

[wolftone57]

If you can't get the head space right nothing else matters. It is a persons psychological condition which controls whether they will be successful or not. That is why all AFL teams have Sports Psychologists. But not all players respond to positive reinforcement and therefore go by the way. Sometimes a player may have huge ability but just doesn't have the mental capacity to convert that to a successful career in AFL.

[aardvark]

True, the other students find her annoying, and often resent her for getting all the good parts, but when questioned, they all freely acknowledge her work ethic, and when she led her school's team to victory in the previous year's show choir championships, she was unanimously voted the competition's MVP by her teammates. Which girl would you choose?

The one with the nicest @%$#

[Xie Shan]

Seems like we are mostly all on the same page here, talent is a major requirement and definitely not overrated, but hard work, application and motivation are often underrated.

The scenario I posted above was chosen deliberately as a contrast to examples from football or other sports - in reality, the same principles apply to most kinds of performance, whether on the stage or on the sporting field. Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers actually contains the best illustration of this that I have come across.

[ShockOfHair]

What's your point? Nobody has claimed that hard work isn't important. Both talent AND hard work are required to make it, whatever you do. To a certain extent, you can make up for a lack of talent with hard work (e.g. Kirk, though he was still pretty damn talented), or can make up for a lack of hard work with talent (e.g. Nick Davis, though as you point out, he could still work hard).

To use ROK Lobster's Warner analogy, Warner is a hugely talented batsman, ..... Now his net sessions last hours, he rarely skips optional sessions, and he ensures he gets his eye in before he goes full throttle.

I think he's still learning that part.

Back on topic... there's that old coach's line (Malthouse? Pagan?): "I don't care how much talent you've got. It's how you use it." That's why we have development coaches.

But from a team point of view talent is irrelevant. Players are selected on their ability to play roles, which is a combination of skill level, discipline and footy smarts.

Talent is really only of interest to recruiters.