Big Whitey

[dimelb]

Couldn't agree more. There were two parts of Jesse's weekend's performance that I really loved (actually there were more, but these are the ones I loved the most).

The first one was obvious - the Q3 goal. It was a great effort to get the ball in the first place, a real display of pace and determination to burn off the Adelaide player and a kick at full pace from a tight angle which any of the goal-sneaks in the AFL would be proud to show their grandkids! I can't get tired of watching repeats of it!

The second one was Everitt's goal. Everitt handpassed to White. It didn't quite stick and was gathered by the Adelaide player, who White tackled, knocking the ball loose. He then dives from the ground to knock it to Everitt's advantages and then jumps up to hold off the Adelaide player cutting off Everitt. He didn't stop him for long, but it was all the time that Everitt needed to charge through and slot a goal from 50. A chain of 1%s that resulted directly in a goal! I hadn't really noticed until Saturday's game how much work the Swans big men do off the ball. If there's a Parker, Jack or Hannebery charging through traffic with the ball, there's almost always a Pyke, Mumford, or White just off-camera holding back would be tacklers. Particularly Pyke. He's made an art-form of it. It's the sort of thing which doesn't turn up on stats and doesn't get praise, but makes our team what it is.

Here's hoping the big man gets another shot at it next week and consolidates with another fantastic performance.

Welcome aboard DK_ and thanks for an informative post, especially on the big men's 1%ers. I'll know what to look for in future.

[DK_]

Thanks dimelb. Been reading for a while and love the forum. Was so excited by Saturday's game that I thought it time to start contributing!

[stellation]

The second one was Everitt's goal. Everitt handpassed to White. It didn't quite stick and was gathered by the Adelaide player, who White tackled, knocking the ball loose. He then dives from the ground to knock it to Everitt's advantages and then jumps up to hold off the Adelaide player cutting off Everitt. He didn't stop him for long, but it was all the time that Everitt needed to charge through and slot a goal from 50. A chain of 1%s that resulted directly in a goal! I hadn't really noticed until Saturday's game how much work the Swans big men do off the ball. If there's a Parker, Jack or Hannebery charging through traffic with the ball, there's almost always a Pyke, Mumford, or White just off-camera holding back would be tacklers. Particularly Pyke. He's made an art-form of it. It's the sort of thing which doesn't turn up on stats and doesn't get praise, but makes our team what it is.

Good observation, I don't know if it counts as a 1% but it definitely should when it gives an obvious clear path for your teammates.

To draw something of a parallel, I watched a bit of basketball this NBA season and one thing that impressed me was watching Andrew Bogut (when he was on the floor) with his new team Golden State. They had an amazing spread of outside shooters, including the best in the league, and I was amazed how often they got open enough to get a shot off was because of the big man Bogut knowing exactly when to time putting a little block on to just put their defender off enough to give them space. In a 5 on 5 game it became quite glaring how much of an impact he was having offensively without the ball in his hand, I think you can definitely start to see the same thing increasingly in football- there's always been the big bump, and always been the arms out to full wingspan shepherd to give a bit of space, but increasingly you see big men starting to read the play a bit to see where/when to put the block on to give their team the best advantage.

[DK_]

Good observation, I don't know if it counts as a 1% but it definitely should when it gives an obvious clear path for your teammates.

To draw something of a parallel, I watched a bit of basketball this NBA season and one thing that impressed me was watching Andrew Bogut (when he was on the floor) with his new team Golden State. They had an amazing spread of outside shooters, including the best in the league, and I was amazed how often they got open enough to get a shot off was because of the big man Bogut knowing exactly when to time putting a little block on to just put their defender off enough to give them space. In a 5 on 5 game it became quite glaring how much of an impact he was having offensively without the ball in his hand, I think you can definitely start to see the same thing increasingly in football- there's always been the big bump, and always been the arms out to full wingspan shepherd to give a bit of space, but increasingly you see big men starting to read the play a bit to see where/when to put the block on to give their team the best advantage.

That's exactly it. Not big bumps that leave the target on the floor. Just enough to get in the defender's way and give the man with the ball enough space (and the likes of Jack and Mitchell don't meed much to do some serious damage). They just look like the big galloot has stumbled into the opposition player or isn't going fast enough to get out of the way. Pyke clearly learnt the skill playing rugby, where a shepherd gets penalised if it looks intentional. But they are undeniably there. If you look through the highlights on sydneyswans.com it's like a crappy Hollywood thriller where the protagonist suddenly realises that there's a CIA agent in the background of every photo of the assassination victim. There's a big man there getting in the way every time.

[barry]

I think even I could look good as a fullforward with the Swans midfield delivering it lace out all afternoon.

[wolftone57]

Dont get me wrong, I love watching Jesse play and he is a hulk of a man - at one stage he was bending over facing towards the camera and I couldnt help but comment about his anvil shoulders. He took a couple of fantastic marks on the weekend, which I loved. He kicks straight and is a great team man. However, there was one occasion at least where he was in a contested contest and didnt try to put any body on his opponent, with that frame he should have edged him out and taken the mark.
i reiterate, I LOVE watching Jesse at his best, but his best is too infrequent to have me that excited. He has 10x the skill of Walsh but Walsh is prepared to try to physically intimidate, which is what the coaches are looking for in that position.
And by the way, I didnt realise that being a goold bloke means that you deserve to play AFL.

It wouldn't matter what Jesse does yoyu won't give him any credit. You just don't like him. I think the bloke has worked very hard to get to where he is today. He was one of the reasons we won so well on the weekend. He put his body on the line all the time. He knocked out of the pack twice that caused goals. He passed four times that caused scores. He kicked three goals. What the @@@@ do you want him to do!!!

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There is a lot of love for White at the moment, but Ive heard both Tippet, Reid and Jetta will be avaliable for the Port game, so I think White will lose his place.

Reid will be lucky to be back & the way he was playing, giving bloody nothing except tackle pressure and getting ball to ground. He really has to step up. Jesse did far more than Sam has done this season.

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White is a very good forward. They just ruin him by persiting with making him play in the ruck.

The first time he gets a game at FF and look what he delivers!

i agree Captain. he is a roaming forward like Riewoldt. He loves that role.

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Six things we learned from round 11 - AFL.com.au

4. The Crows should have taken Jesse White
Adelaide could have landed Jesse White along with the Swans' first-round pick (no. 23) for Kurt Tippett, but the Crows eventually turned the deal down. You can safely bet they would have wanted him on Saturday night. Concerns over his ability at the top level were alleviated with an outstanding three-goal, 13-disposal, seven-mark effort as the Swans' last-choice tall forward. The 25-year-old has had trouble consistently producing quality games throughout his career, his talent was on full show against Adelaide. He can play ? make no mistake about that. White's goal from a tight angle in the third quarter, after outrunning an opponent was brilliant. - Harry Thring

According to an agreement with Tippett's management they could only ask for a second round draft pick. I think if Jesse really wanted to go anywhere he would have nominated for the draft.

[Jewels]

It wouldn't matter what Jesse does yoyu won't give him any credit. You just don't like him. I think the bloke has worked very hard to get to where he is today. He was one of the reasons we won so well on the weekend. He put his body on the line all the time. He knocked out of the pack twice that caused goals. He passed four times that caused scores. He kicked three goals. What the @@@@ do you want him to do!!!

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Reid will be lucky to be back & the way he was playing, giving bloody nothing except tackle pressure and getting ball to ground. He really has to step up. Jesse did far more than Sam has done this season.

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i agree Captain. he is a roaming forward like Riewoldt. He loves that role.

For heavens sake White had one good game, ONE GOOD GAME, he is yet to prove himself as anything more then a flat track bully. As Barry said, any one of us would have looked good in the forward line on Saturday with the quality of ball the mids were delivering.
White one of the reasons we won so well - give me a break and as for Reid being lucky to get back, well I'm sorry that's just laughable, White will probably hold his spot till Mumford is back but then he's gonnnnnnnnne.
Just because you think he is the greatest thing to ever happen to the Sydney Swans doesn't make it so!

[0918330512]

For heavens sake White had one good game, ONE GOOD GAME, he is yet to prove himself as anything more then a flat track bully. As Barry said, any one of us would have looked good in the forward line on Saturday with the quality of ball the mids were delivering.
White one of the reasons we won so well - give me a break and as for Reid being lucky to get back, well I'm sorry that's just laughable, White will probably hold his spot till Mumford is back but then he's gonnnnnnnnne.
Just because you think he is the greatest thing to ever happen to the Sydney Swans doesn't make it so!

This is like watching your patents fighting! Pleeeease ... play nice ... for the sake of the kids

[wolftone57]

Tippet will have the fitness. In fact his fitness base should be higher than anyone on our list, since he's had nearly 9 months of training, training, training and no niggling injuries to cope with.

The only thing he wont have is match-fitness. Which means he may not pick up the pace right away, but he should easily last out the match.

Barry it is not fitness but match fitness that counts at this stage. Tippett is fit as a Mallee Bull but he is not match fit and that is what counts. He will struggle in a match first up. against Port it won't be a problem.

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For heavens sake White had one good game, ONE GOOD GAME, he is yet to prove himself as anything more then a flat track bully. As Barry said, any one of us would have looked good in the forward line on Saturday with the quality of ball the mids were delivering.
White one of the reasons we won so well - give me a break and as for Reid being lucky to get back, well I'm sorry that's just laughable, White will probably hold his spot till Mumford is back but then he's gonnnnnnnnne.
Just because you think he is the greatest thing to ever happen to the Sydney Swans doesn't make it so!

So his goal against Smith, one of Adelaide's fastest players not delivered to his advantage at all was a fluke was it? I don't think Jesse is the greatest thing at all as a matter of fact I have been very critical of how he goes about his game. You may not remember but I questioned his awareness and still do. But he has improved. Sam Reid is not the saviour for @@@@s sake. he is a developing player who needs to play along side of someone like Tippett to be more than just useful. Jesse if Tippett is injured. I don't think that idolising players is a good thing at all. I believe in looking at their strengths and weaknesses and finding a way for them to be useful. Jesse is like a raging bull when he has a straight run at the pill. Sam is clever and elusive and very good also at ground level, they both are. Sam takes wonderful pack marks but drops the easy pill. Jesse never drops the easy pill but sometimes does not like heavy body pressure. sorry but both have their good and bad sides.

[stellation]

For heavens sake White had one good game, ONE GOOD GAME, he is yet to prove himself as anything more then a flat track bully. As Barry said, any one of us would have looked good in the forward line on Saturday with the quality of ball the mids were delivering.
White one of the reasons we won so well - give me a break and as for Reid being lucky to get back, well I'm sorry that's just laughable, White will probably hold his spot till Mumford is back but then he's gonnnnnnnnne.

Belittling his game by suggesting he's not a reason we won and saying he's a flat track bully is a little unfair when you're highlighting that Sam should come straight back in. If kicking goals in a big win makes you a flat track bully, Sam has only kicked 7 goals from 9 games as a key forward this year and 5 of those have come from 2 games you could argue put him in flat track bully territory- against GWS and the Lions.

[ScottH]

Sam has also played up the ground, or in some cases at the other end of the ground, and has performed quite well.
Sam as you've said has kicked most of his goals against dud sides.
Jesse has kicked his against one dud side, and struggled, as did Sam against a good side (although, the Hawks were hot to trot that night.).

I still think Sam has more positives than Jesse, but both are not showing their wares often enough.

(Posted without issue from IE8)

[stellation]

Sam has also played up the ground, or in some cases at the other end of the ground, and has performed quite well.
Sam as you've said has kicked most of his goals against dud sides.
Jesse has kicked his against one dud side, and struggled, as did Sam against a good side (although, the Hawks were hot to trot that night.).

I still think Sam has more positives than Jesse, but both are not showing their wares often enough.

(Posted without issue from IE8)

I expect Sam to come in over Jesse, I'm not really suggesting he wouldn't and I can perfectly understand why he would. I think he's generally played well since the Lions game.

I don't think there's a conspiracy against Jesse from the coaching staff, but I do think his performances are judged with more scrutiny than others by them and certainly by those on here. Not to suggest that you're doing it, but as a minor perception thing I think your comment highlights it to some extent; when discussing their output as key forwards we are quick to highlight that Sam has been playing away from the goal square, but we don't really touch on Jesse's forward production (in the Hawks game, for instance, and each run he had last year) also having to factor in time spent in the ruck.

Even with playing up the ground I do think Sam has spent enough time close to goals that he probably would have been our top (if not, top 3) forward 50 target so far this year.

[RogueSwan]

IMO you can't really compare the two as Reid has been asked to play a high CHF position whereas White was playing as more a goal square to 50 arc forward, dare I a say, ala a Full-forward?
Without a Tippo (apparently that is what the Boys call him) option you could easily see both of them playing in the same team. With it pretty likely that Tippo will play next week it will be interesting to see if White is pushed further up the ground to play more of a roaming role.

[Dosser]

It wouldn't matter what Jesse does yoyu won't give him any credit. You just don't like him. I think the bloke has worked very hard to get to where he is today. He was one of the reasons we won so well on the weekend. He put his body on the line all the time. He knocked out of the pack twice that caused goals. He passed four times that caused scores. He kicked three goals. What the @@@@ do you want him to do!!!

Ah Wolfie. I really do enjoy reading your posts because you are insightful and thoughtful. For this reason I am assuming that you were responding to the wrong post? I praised Jesse (read it again) and commented that he needs to be more physical. If he was then he would be a gun ff and we would never have gone after Tippett in the first place.

[Melbournehammer]

So happy that there is now some actual fairness about assessing jesse. Please remember that many of those games he has played for us in the last few years - richmond at the mcg last year, hawthorn at the mcg this - we have been absolutely belted around the ball - and i mean absolutely belted. but he is always the first one out because he has no support behind him.

Sam has been a critical part of our success because he is rarely outmarked - he actually has tremendous reach and a great spoil and he uses that often when caught behind in marking contests - which is why i think he would actually make a great defender. but jesse has strengths as well - people expect him to bust packs - but bbbh never did that and no-one criticised him for basically being a lead up forward who was lost when they introduced the hands in the back rule because he didnt know how to take a contested mark apart from pushing his opponent under the ball. Jesse often plays in front and has consistently brought the ball to ground when in contests - and that is what people congratulate sam for on many occasions.

They are both developing players and neither is the answer to everything but I am so sick of people calling him a spud. He isnt. He had the misfortune to play at the tail end of a great period for us - as our entire midfield turned over as all of the 2005-06 era players drifted out and todays midfield was developing.

I would play sam ahead of jesse because he is capable of getting up to the wing and back more often, but i just want him to be recognised as not a spud but someone that can play a bit - limitations exist but he is not a spud.