"1874" or "What makes us, Us?"

[Bloods05]

Great analogy, so what your saying is that just as i should recognise both my parents as a part of my history, then the club should recognise both of it's "parents" too.
The thing is, by choosing 1874, the club is actually doing the opposite of this. It is doing the equivalent of me saying that while i honour my mothers (lets call her "South") part of my history, my fathers (lets call him "Albert") involvement isn't a part of the picture until six years after my birth.
What I was trying to say in this thread, but which has been lost by some people's disinclination to read, let alone think about what has been said previously in a thread before "contributing" - is that the only physical connection the present club has to its origins is the red and white we play in. Those colours belong to the Albert Park part of our heritage, and that team doesn't get a mention in any swans history that I have read until it and south amalgamated.
How could it when the club only traces its history back to 1874?

First of all, analogies are not meant to be read literally. Secondly, the family analogy fits the football club scenario beautifully, mostly because football clubs are like families but also because so many of us have a family connection to our football club.

My convict ancestors, who settled in what was then Montague (now Montague St South Melbourne) in the 1860s, supported the Cecil Club for its brief existence, then South, then when they absorbed Albert Park and changed the colours, continued supporting them. So my family history with the club and its people goes back to 1874, and I'm sure my ancestors thought of it as the same club throughout. My Dad and I and my siblings were sad when the club moved to Sydney, but what made us stick was the club's decision (after some equivocation when the egregious Edelsten was in charge) to honour its history and its links with those times.

St Kilda has changed its colours. Footscray has changed its name. Port Adelaide has changed its nickname, as has almost every other club. Sydney has an "official" and an "unofficial" nickname. Virtually every team (yes, Eddie, even your precious Magpies) has changed its guernsey design. It is the continuous association with the people and the emotional connection that matters. The tangible stuff is far less important than the intangible.

[dimelb]

... The thing is, by choosing 1874, the club is actually doing the opposite of this. It is doing the equivalent of me saying that while i honour my mothers (lets call her "South") part of my history, my fathers (lets call him "Albert") involvement isn't a part of the picture until six years after my birth ...

Q. What do you call a kid who sits in church eating a pie while his mother and father get married?
A. A hungry bastard.

I apologise for not resisting the opportunity!

[Swansongster]

Albert Park Football Club still exists. New entity, I'm sure but playing every Saturday in District Divvy 3 (I think).

[Bloods05]

Q. What do you call a kid who sits in church eating a pie while his mother and father get married?
A. A hungry bastard.

I apologise for not resisting the opportunity!

Funny!

[sharp9]

Maybe a better analogy...rather than saying I am only honouring one parent...etc, etc....is to look at the sources of a river. All great rivers have significant tributaries, but the source is the one that goes furthest back...even if the tributary that goes furthest back is not the biggest or most famous tributary. If it's the furthest away, but still continuously connected, it is regarded as the true source.

Alternatively it would be perfectly valid to say "The merging of Albert Park and Emerald saw a club formed that resembles, and went on to become, the South Melbourne Football Club, so therefore I suggest that this is the best date from which to celebrate the origin of the club as we know it."

Either way there's no need for anyone to get upset surely :-)

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Maybe a better analogy...rather than saying I am only honouring one parent...etc, etc....is to look at the sources of a river. All great rivers have significant tributaries, but the source is the one that goes furthest back...even if the tributary that goes furthest back is not the biggest or most famous tributary. If it's the furthest away, but still continuously connected, it is regarded as the true source.

Yes, another good analogy. As Albert Park was the senior of the two clubs at amalgamation, that makes it the tributary that goes furthest back/true source. So as I previously suggested why doesn't the club replace 1874 with 1868?

Alternatively it would be perfectly valid to say "The merging of Albert Park and Emerald saw a club formed that resembles, and went on to become, the South Melbourne Football Club, so therefore I suggest that this is the best date from which to celebrate the origin of the club as we know it."

I also suggested amalgamation date. And while I'm not sure which of the two would.be the best alternative, I do think both would be preferable to 1874, which only celebrates half the story.

Either way there's no need for anyone to get upset surely :-)

I truly didn't think so when I opened the thread, I thought it a mild subject with which to while away a week of the off season. However, some people took my questioning of the 1874 date as somehow "dissing" or "disrespecting" the club, and reacted.
These reactions seemed to derail the discussion, but my attempt to settle such distractions by diverting them into personal messages failed - as did my attempts at clarification in this thread.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Funny!

I think its my turn. . . .

Q. What do you call a bird that prefers to strut around, fluffing its feathers and screeching raucously in public rather than discussing matters in a civilsed manner using a PM?

Can't guess? I'll give you a clue, it behaves like the Parrot!

[spiffy-dude]

Just came across this now and thought i'll post it here.

[goswannie14]

I need to correct a mistake in a number of posts. The name of one of the entities in our history is actually Emerald Hill, not Emerald.

Let the discussion continue.

[Untamed Snark]

Just came across this now and thought i'll post it here.

Awesome! You found Wally

[sharp9]

I can't find a decent history that tells me why the club was initially called "Cecil" and then called "Emerald Hill?" Am I right that it then changed it's named to South Melbourne very soon after? What comp did South Melbourne play in (not the VFA as it is not listed in the list of club's on wikipedia." OR was it just a club that played games arranged by opposing club secretaries....so it wasn't in a formal competition prior to merging with Albert Park? Help as these things are not on the wiki on this site either (that I can can find :-) )

BTW the "Swans Wiki" on this site doesn't come up on google...I wonder why.

[aardvark]

Ok. This is pure speculation but there is a Cecil St in what was Emerald Hill which became Sth Melbourne in 1883. Could be they had a ground there although its not visible today. On the corner of Cecil St and Park St there is an open area that has the look of an oval.

Going one step further Cecil St was named after Lord Robert Cecil. Here is a link to his history for those who are really bored.....

Page not found | Streets of South Melbourne

[aardvark]

Capture.jpg

View of Cecil St and Bank St intersection 1875. Plenty of room for a footy match in those days.

[Bloods05]

Awesome! You found Wally

Later commandeered by the other red and white Bloods, Mordialloc FC:

http://localhistory.kingston.vic.gov.au/img/imgal/3_7.jpg

[goswannie14]

Ok. This is pure speculation but there is a Cecil St in what was Emerald Hill which became Sth Melbourne in 1883. Could be they had a ground there although its not visible today. On the corner of Cecil St and Park St there is an open area that has the look of an oval.

Going one step further Cecil St was named after Lord Robert Cecil. Here is a link to his history for those who are really bored.....

Page not found | Streets of South Melbourne

I am pretty sure that your reasoning is correct. As an aside the local paper there when I lived there in the 1990's was the Emerald Hill Times.