Round 16: Sydney v Hawthorn

[Plugger46]

The players we were forced to shed in order to get Buddy (and not that Buddy hasn?t been an outstanding acquisition) has seriously affected our depth. We no longer seem able to absorb a handful of injuries any more. When you look at that ?bottom 6? they don?t stack up so well against Mumford, White, Membrey, Everitt for example, and even Jed Lamb who is struggling to get a run at GWS is at least the equal of B Jack or Towers in my estimation. For starters he can kick long and score goals.

It?s possibly too early in Robinson?s development and Nankervis' for that matter to carry much baggage for the current situation, though on limited appearances I?m not sensing they are matchwinners.

Everitt has been solid at Carlton. He'd play. As would Mumford. I doubt the others would assist us greatly.

[barry]

We dont play at finals intensity anymore.

[Conor_Dillon]

We dont play at finals intensity anymore.

Itensity wasn't the problem, it was our skills and gameplan.

[Plugger46]

Itensity wasn't the problem, it was our skills and gameplan.

Yep. We won enough of the footy and generated enough chances to be in the game.

[baskin]

My only comment is that I don't think the margin would have been as much at halftime if we had a fully fit mcglynn, rohan, Heeney, Pyke

If we weakened the Hawks by removing approx equivalent style players such poppa, Gunston, Breust, McEvoy then it would have been interesting

But we will never know

Either way the Hawks have put to the sword their two biggest contenders and if west coast continue to evolve they might be the only team to provide any resistance

You should add Laidler to that list.
Another thing I would like to question is the misconception that Tippett was injured in the last minutes of the game. I noticed the bandaging on his hand straight after half time and went back and checked the replay ( I know I'm a glutton for punishment!) to confirm he did the injury in the last four minutes of the second quarter in a ruck duel with McEvoy. He contested the ruck with only one hand and would only use one arm to go into marking contests for the rest of the game. The one time he tried to use the bad hand to fend off at a ruck duel he had to come off the ground again.

While I beleive we still would have lost the game, losing Bird and having a winged Tippett and a two gamer in Nankervis in the ruck made the loss even worse.

[Conor_Dillon]

Tip's hand confirmed broken, apparently happened halfway through the second quarter. He'll miss 2-3 according to Horse. Bird will also miss a week.

NicNat is going to have a field day on the weekend.

[dejavoodoo44]

You should add Laidler to that list.
Another thing I would like to question is the misconception that Tippett was injured in the last minutes of the game. I noticed the bandaging on his hand straight after half time and went back and checked the replay ( I know I'm a glutton for punishment!) to confirm he did the injury in the last four minutes of the second quarter in a ruck duel with McEvoy. He contested the ruck with only one hand and would only use one arm to go into marking contests for the rest of the game. The one time he tried to use the bad hand to fend off at a ruck duel he had to come off the ground again.

While I beleive we still would have lost the game, losing Bird and having a winged Tippett and a two gamer in Nankervis in the ruck made the loss even worse.

While checking the replay, you didn't happen to tally up all the frees that Stevic gave to the Hawks, did you? I sort of want to, but I can't really bring myself to start up the DVD.

[mcs]

Tip's hand confirmed broken, apparently happened halfway through the second quarter. He'll miss 2-3 according to Horse. Bird will also miss a week.

NicNat is going to have a field day on the weekend.

Surely we can go back to our old tactics in the ruck for 1 week - i.e. just concede it, and tell our midfielders to focus more on sharking the taps from Nic Nat than expecting our ruckmen to win it.

I hope this doesn't mean we are going to see Derricx rolled out again

[ugg]

Teddy one week suspension.

Jetta $1000 fine for his bump on Breust

Parker also fined $1000 for rough conduct on Birchall.

[Go Swannies]

Teddy one week suspension.

Jetta $1000 fine for his bump on Breust

Parker also fined $1000 for rough conduct on Birchall.

That's better than I thought it'd be. Gee the Hawks are good: constantly playing dirty footy and that expectation luring us into taking cheap shots that could have left us even more depleted for the next week or two.

[wolftone57]

Really felt we missed Mal in that type of game. We lacked any sense of adventure coming out of defence and often switched slowly and got pushed backwards.

The Hawks defended well but we really weren't incisive at all. In the brief patches Parker was involved he was good and things opened up when he had the ball.

Wolf I think that Horse was playing the man on the wing to clear out forward line. We had congestion there, they'd clear it and swarm en masse into our open D50.

If so you don't leave their really dangerous backs on their own. At least be within grasp of them. Burgoyne & Birchell destroyed us with their delivery running through the centre square. Once this was happening I think you need to rethink strategy and place the flanker on the flank. Kizza & co being mids on the wing played like mids. They were also covering more ground this way too so not much of a rest forward. The strategy to open the forward line was a joke. Hawks had plenty back in a zone and we had nobody to crumb off the talls. Stupid but the same as always.

[Go Swannies]

BTW after the shame of the Tigers umpiring a few weeks ago I came away from Saturday's game thinking the umpiring v the Hawks was a lot better than I expected. I saw the run of decisions at the end of Q2 but didn't see any that were blatantly unfair (cf Tigers).

Being at the game did I miss woeful umpiring decisions beyond the slightly different interpretation of prior opportunity, etc that I simply expect every week?

[The Big Cat]

The players we were forced to shed in order to get Buddy (and not that Buddy hasn?t been an outstanding acquisition) has seriously affected our depth. We no longer seem able to absorb a handful of injuries any more. When you look at that ?bottom 6? they don?t stack up so well against Mumford, White, Membrey, Everitt for example, and even Jed Lamb who is struggling to get a run at GWS is at least the equal of B Jack or Towers in my estimation. For starters he can kick long and score goals.

It?s possibly too early in Robinson?s development and Nankervis' for that matter to carry much baggage for the current situation, though on limited appearances I?m not sensing they are matchwinners.

With the exception of Mumford the players that we shipped wouldn't help us much. Everitt was OK against the weaker teams, White is nearly a liability at Collingwood and we're got more tall forwards than you can shake a stick at, Membrey struggles to hold his spot at the lowly St Kilda, Biggs can't get a game at the bullies, Lamb can't get a game at GWS. If we are looking for depth we are better to play your Robinsons etc as maybe they might just become better than depth players which the ones we shipped out most certainly were.

[rojo]

Here's the link to Rohan Connally's comments on SEN referred to earlier. It's worth a listen, but nothing new that hasn't been commented on already.

http://www.sen.com.au/news/07-15/con...plete-shambles

I only read the blurb but what he says is what I have been thinking all this year. Not only is our 2012 game plan with a few tweaks, so, so predictable but we have just shoved Buddy and KT into it and continued on. It was interesting to see that with both of them out we still won, no probs, that's how we have played for the last x number of years. Put Buddy and KT back in, and yet again we see how easily they are shut down when in the forward line. We do not yet know how to maximise their skills and talents nor have we an effective plan B for when teams drop extra players back. Watching Buddy on Sat. night I wondered if he was about ready to give up. If it is frustrating to watch I can't imagine what it is like for him.

What is a mystery to me is that we went after 2 forwards with proven ability, at considerable cost, but we stick with a game plan/forward structure that functions as well or even better without them. Maybe we should stick with KT as our number 1 ruck man (when he is available) and put Buddy permanently on the wing. Goodesy and Reid are good enough to keep the opposition key backs busy and we don't bomb the ball in long on top of their heads quite so much.

The Hawks really are impressive in the way they change things up and are always at the cutting edge. Like surrounding Buddy with the arc of players when he was kicking for goal, and coming out on Sat. night very controlled, smooth, confident and clinical after a period of physically roughing teams up, especially the Swans.

[wolftone57]

Player by player, we're down almost right across the board compared to last year and to 2012.

We've added Buddy - clearly an improvement on 2012 and maybe on a par with last year. He's been a little less effective but that's likely to be a symptom of the team as a whole not going so well.
Hanners has been better than last year. He's not been out injured, for a start. And while he was very good in 2012, he's been more consistent this year.
Kennedy's best has been as good as last year and maybe as good as 2012 but he's not produced it as often. His goal kicking, in particular, is well down on 2012.
Jack's down a bit on 2012, probably on a par with last year. Same with Macca.
Reg is probably on a par with both years (and for all the criticism he gets from some on here, I rate him as a good solid contributor).
Jetts has improved. He's certainly a more rounded player. But he's been a bit erratic this year. I think he's capable of more consistent contributions.
Smith seems a little down.
Ted is slowing down.
Goodes is probably on a par with last year but down on 2012.
Shaw is gradually declining.
Johnson has been injured since 2012.
Mal, Marty and Mummy have gone.
Pyke is down on both last year and 2012, quite possibly due to injury.
McGlynn's been missing most of this year. He missed a fair bit of last year too, but when he was available he was a very good contributor (GF aside).
Parker's developed since 2012 but hasn't been able to reproduce last year on a consistent basis. He's still been reasonable all the time and has produced a few great games. I'm confident this is just part of his learning curve. He's copping more attention from the opposition this year and he's still very young for an absolute top liner.
Tippo's relative worth is hard to evaluate. It's been a godsend that he's at least been on the park more often than last year, and his ruck contributions have been handy. But in front of goal he's loomed as a dangerous target in only odd patches.

We don't really have any of our younger brigade sticking their hands up and elevating themselves into the top dozen players in the team. Rohan's done it in patches, but not consistently within a game, and of course now he's injured.
Lloyd is a solid addition - obviously not there in 2012 and maybe slightly down on his 2013, but only ever so slightly.
Harry's failed to develop from a solid year last year. He's still making some OK contributions but is playing like one of the last few players picked, not someone who sees himself as a core part of the team.
Reid is of an age now where he needs to stand up and announce himself to be a core member of the side. He's tantalised us for a quarter here, a quarter there, but then he plateaus (or disappears).
Mitchell is still establishing himself, and on the whole he's been reasonable. But I doubt he's giving us as much as Bird (his replacee) did in either 2012 or last year.
Heeney and Jones are still complete newbies finding their way. Heeney, in particular, did show enough to excite and hopefully he can pick up where he left off when he returns from injury (next week, I hope). Neither of these two can be expected to carry the team right now, but both look to have the ability to become key team members from 2016 or so onwards.
And then we have the rotation of Towers, Jack, Robinson in and out of the side as the last man picked. None looks ready to do too much at senior level yet. Whether they ever will, we will have to wait and see.

Overall, I think our best 10 or so are operating not far off where they did in 2014, but what drop off there is has been is concentrated in defence. Certainly compared to 2012 our bottom half a dozen or so players aren't contributing nearly as much, and probably too much is being left to too few.

Parts of your analysis I agree with but parts I don't.

1. Smithy, Kizza, Macca & Joey have been terribly inconsistent. Not only that their performances are very much down on 2012 and even down on last year. Their influence is far less and as some of the most experienced of our players they have been a let down this year. macca & Kizza havwe not stood up when a captain needs to either.

2. Shaw, Richards and Pyke have not produced at all. They have been poor and in any other top side would have been dropped ages ago. Hawks & Freo would hacve dropped them. We don't. Maybe because we don't have any replacements. I disagree when it comes the Shaw & Pyke.

3. Reg & Laids have been our most consistent performers all season. Rampe has had his moments too but Longmire needs to make up his mind what role Rampe is going to play in defence. Is he the Mal replacement or do you play him on the talls as a third tall? For crying out loud horse make your bloody mind up. The kid would benefit by just playing one role and so would our defence.

4. You didn't mention Laids. He has been really good. Then again he is not a Fav is he?

5. The young blokes are having more impact than the experienced players this year. Parker, Hannas, Lloydy (other than when he was carrying a soft tissue), Heeney (when he has played), Rampe, Jetts (people forget he is still only young), Sammy (even though they haven't found a role for him, his dippy form is Horse's fault. I think when given responsibility he has played really well).

6. Jetts role is another confusing one. He has done well but needs more time to get the KO right. Macca needs to be permanent HB. He, Jetts & Rampe the runners out of the defence.

7. Lloyd didn't join us until 2014 not 2013. He is still very young in AFL terms in his second season. This is generally the season a player regresses a bit after a good debut season. He hasn't done that in fact when totally fit he has been very good and clever. But I'd like to know what idiot decided he should play on Isaac Smith, far too slow for Smith.

8. We need to have a transition plan in place. I don't think we have. All the energy went into getting Bud & Tip. Nothing as to what is going to happen whenb our backs get old ands slow. Well that is happening now. No transition plan at all and we keep drafting mids? What the @@@@ for?

9. Jones will be good, he has so far in his infancy in AFL footy, proven to be a hard nut and pretty cool under pressure. Can't say that for most of the rest of the team, Parks excluded.

10. I think you might like to look at the coaches too.

The mids coach Stewart Dew has been mixed in the strategies and personnel mixes he has used this year. I don't think the mids mixes have been that great until Mitchell came in frankly. You say Mitchell gives us less than Bird did in 2012. Bird in 2012 was an already established senior player. Mitchell is a rookie in comparison but as far as giving us more this year, he gives us a thousand times more than Bird. Bird was getting murdered by Sam Mitchell and even his attempts to dispose were smothered every time. He was pretty ineffective until he went off last game. Mitchell held his own.

Forward Coach Henry Playfair. I think he has been poor this year. Our forward structures don't work and are our main problem. I don't know if it is Henry or Horse. But it is one of them or both. They seem to be tunnel visioned.

Josh Francou - Clearance & Stoppages; We have been getting better in this area so whatever he is doing is starting to work.

Defence Coach - John Blakey; the strategy of having all the mids and half the forwards in defence to save a defence that is incapable of going man on man is starting to wear thin. The game plan to continuously handball backward toward the opposition goal was always going to be exploited by a good side. Hawks totally exploited this and kicked 8 goals from eventual mistakes. All year our defence has been brittle. Now it is glass and is getting smashed. Blakey is holding together a rotting tapestry.

Our coaches compared to 2012, no comparison, 2012 were far better. George Stone & Leigh Tudor were sensational. Francou may be just as good as Stone, time will tell but I worry about the others, Horse included. He seems a two trick pony to me. He doesn't seem to be able to change when needed and doesn't make key decisions during a game that can wrest control back.