Club revenue and pokies

[Thunder Shaker]

One of Hawthorn's poker machine venues is not far from where I live. It's in the southeast suburbs of Melbourne, about 25 kilometres from Hawthorn, and located in the lower levels of a large shopping centre.

[Mug Punter]

One of Hawthorn's poker machine venues is not far from where I live. It's in the southeast suburbs of Melbourne, about 25 kilometres from Hawthorn, and located in the lower levels of a large shopping centre.

As Andrew Ireland has said, it is easier to take the moral high ground when you don't have any pokies, and they are legal but they are a stain on the game as far as I am concerned. Along with the appalling integration of the online sports gambling companies into our matchday experience. Pokies may well be the crack cocaine of gambling (and accessibility is a huge factor in why so many more people have gambling problems) but I also fear we are seeing a generation of children who see gambling on sport as just the natural thing you should do. I know the ex St Kilda President Butterss was was a bit loose but I agreed 100% re his comments about the AFL and their appalling record re gambling and inability to turn away the gambling dollar.

The problem now is that the biggest addicts of all are the Victorian clubs, they now can simply not afford to lose the income streams from the rivers of misery that those machines cause. Just as the NSW government, with 10% of the world's freaking poker machines, the majority strategically located in low socioeconomic areas, is hooked.

I just hope we are better than that and don't go down that path because once we do we'll be hooked as well.

[S.S. Bleeder]

I find it extremely hypocritical and two faced of the AFL to continually promote that that they take the higher morale ground in terms of indigenous affairs, LGBT rights, etc, etc. Yet, when it comes to the pokies and gambling in general which destroys thousands of lives each year they actually encourage it because they can make a buck out of it.

[Mug Punter]

I find it extremely hypocritical and two faced of the AFL to continually promote that that they take the higher morale ground in terms of indigenous affairs, LGBT rights, etc, etc. Yet, when it comes to the pokies and gambling in general which destroys thousands of lives each year they actually encourage it because they can make a buck out of it.

I agree, and it's a relatively small amount of money for the league, about $10m a year I think. This is the perfect example of how the AFL use spin to try and cover over an issue, I'd prefer they did nothing rather than insult our intelligence by pretending they are actually trying

The reliance by the Melbourne clubs in the pokie dollar is almost impossible to wind back. Ultimately I guess they are a legal product, albeit one evil IMO, and it is hard to resist the easy dollar they provide. And I guess if the club's don't own them someone else will. And I'm not sure if the league could stop them having pokies even if they wanted to.

But the league could show some leadership on the sports betting front which I see as the big sleeper in terms of gambling addiction. Show the leadership that governments won't and refuse any formal gambling sponsorship of the league and insist upon no gambling advertisements between the first bounce and the full time whistle. I'd still prefer none at all but that is probably be as far as they can go without getting commercially penalised too much. I wonder if the AFLPA would accept that the pie size get reduced to reflect that? Probably not but I think that the players in many respect have a stronger moral compass on these things than the game's administrators.

[Mug Punter]

I must say that I find the almost 100% opposition to us having pokies very encouraging.

And I also find the general opposition to them on here heart-warming. I think it is virtually impossible for anyone to not know someone directly or indirectly that has had their lives destroyed by these things. And they prey on the weak and vulnerable.

And I've seen community opinion to those things harden too which is nice even though the power and influence of the pubs and clubs is so strong and evil.

As someone who hates them with a passion I nonetheless accept they are probably here to stay but I hope that one of the few organisations I haven't lost faith in (The Swans) never goes near them. And I'll be gutted if they do and I suspect it will probably destroy the love I have for the club.

Apologies for the heavy post

[Blood Fever]

I find it extremely hypocritical and two faced of the AFL to continually promote that that they take the higher morale ground in terms of indigenous affairs, LGBT rights, etc, etc. Yet, when it comes to the pokies and gambling in general which destroys thousands of lives each year they actually encourage it because they can make a buck out of it.

Definite double standard- still a flaw in our society where anyone who opposes gambling/alcohol reform is viewed suspiciously as a 'wowser' despite massive issues. AFL no different especially when big dollars involved.

- - - Updated - - -

I must say that I find the almost 100% opposition to us having pokies very encouraging.

And I also find the general opposition to them on here heart-warming. I think it is virtually impossible for anyone to not know someone directly or indirectly that has had their lives destroyed by these things. And they prey on the weak and vulnerable.

And I've seen community opinion to those things harden too which is nice even though the power and influence of the pubs and clubs is so strong and evil.

As someone who hates them with a passion I nonetheless accept they are probably here to stay but I hope that one of the few organisations I haven't lost faith in (The Swans) never goes near them. And I'll be gutted if they do and I suspect it will probably destroy the love I have for the club.

Apologies for the heavy post

No need to apologise MP. Would take the wind out of my sails in terms of huge admiration I have for the culture of the club.

[Thunder Shaker]

I think it is virtually impossible for anyone to not know someone directly or indirectly that has had their lives destroyed by these things. And they prey on the weak and vulnerable.

This is a massive problem. I live a few kilometres from Sandown Park (a major racing venue). It's an area that has a lot of people on low incomes. There isn't a pub or similar venue within five kilometres that doesn't have a room filled with these infernal gambling machines. I know of six venues, and there are probably more that I haven't seen yet. Hawthorn's venue is a bit further away from my home, but is within five kilometres of Sandown Park. If it was a posh suburb, there wouldn't be so many venues and so many gambling machines.

The big failing is that local councils do not have the right to collect their share of revenue from gambling machines. Local councils cannot impose taxes on them, and local councils cannot limit the number of gambling machines in their jurisdiction. This is wrong.

That's what I call them: gambling machines, not the euphemistic "gaming machines". To me, a gaming machine is a high-performance personal computer that is used for playing computer games. Anyone who calls the gambling machines "gaming machines" must therefore be corrected at every opportunity.

[Boddo]

One of the things I loved about moving to WA was that there's non of these things apart from the casino. When they first came in where I lived I watched as they destroyed the pub scene of music n entertainment n slowly but surely the dance floor disappeared n so did the community. I'm not against them 100% I'm just not in favour of how many there is in pubs n clubs over east. Allow them in casinos n designated areas so the elderly who do like to enjoy them.

[Mug Punter]

One of the things I loved about moving to WA was that there's non of these things apart from the casino. When they first came in where I lived I watched as they destroyed the pub scene of music n entertainment n slowly but surely the dance floor disappeared n so did the community. I'm not against them 100% I'm just not in favour of how many there is in pubs n clubs over east. Allow them in casinos n designated areas so the elderly who do like to enjoy them.

I know a number of people that moved to WA to get away from the pokies, it seems extreme but that's the hold on people they have. I just hope the people of WA never let a government introduce them despite whatever financial stresses the stat budget may be under. Most WA people I meet are proud they don't have them.

Of course WA will still have problem gamblers, and sports betting is insidious, but it is well documented that pokies are by far the worst form of gambling in terms of accessibility and addiction, hence the crack cocaine of gambling line.

Plus the fact they are in licensed venues where people are drinking with their inhibitions down and judgement impaired.

Having them at a Casino is fine. Even having them just in licensed clubs in Sydney you had to seek them out but now they are just everywhere.

There are three major factors in terms harm minimisation:

* Accessibility which of course has just gone through the roof, every pub is a casino now where before you had to seek out your local club which at least put "Something" back in the community. The argument that clubs put so much back into the community is largely a hollow argument though - have a look at the financial statements of any licensed club and you'll see that the whole shebang is funded by gambling losses and their "community" funding is usually very modest. They really exist as a reverse form of welfare that feathers the nest of club management.

* Win limit - gambling experts agree that one single change would probably turn the majority of problem gamblers from the addiction. And that is reducing the win limit to $500 at most or preferably $250. See it is the lure of the big win that keeps people chasing their losses. And going back to coins rather than letting note acceptors take $100 bills at a time (how sick is that) would also help. This second point alone would have been much more effective than the entire Wilkie proposal that failed in parliament which was impractical and impossible to implement effectively.

* Bet limit - reducing from $5 to $1 would clearly help but many see it as less effective than reducing the win limit

For all the problems Pokies present a solution that would genuinely ease the suffering are relatively straightforward. But nobody has the political will to make it happen.

Apologies again for going OT

[KTigers]

Yes, it is interesting how areas of pubs that used to be used for live music have been renovated to become pokie rooms.
Basically successive governments have bowed to intense lobby pressure from the pub industry to allow the proliferation
of pokies. At least when they where just in licensed clubs (like RSLs etc), which are meant to be non profit
organisations who are involved in the community, at least some of the money was indirectly distributed back to where
it came from. Now these big gambling pubs are just vehicles to be grouped together and be traded around between investment
funds like the one Andrew Pridham and his company has put together. The pubs have become way more valuable because
of the profits they receive from the poker machines, not because they are selling more beer and $10 steak lunches.
It's not an accident that the really large gambling pubs are in low income areas. You won't find one in Point Piper or
Toorak, but you may find some of the residences of the people that own them.

[Boddo]

I know a number of people that moved to WA to get away from the pokies, it seems extreme but that's the hold on people they have. I just hope the people of WA never let a government introduce them despite whatever financial stresses the stat budget may be under. Most WA people I meet are proud they don't have them.

Of course WA will still have problem gamblers, and sports betting is insidious, but it is well documented that pokies are by far the worst form of gambling in terms of accessibility and addiction, hence the crack cocaine of gambling line.

Plus the fact they are in licensed venues where people are drinking with their inhibitions down and judgement impaired.

Having them at a Casino is fine. Even having them just in licensed clubs in Sydney you had to seek them out but now they are just everywhere.

There are three major factors in terms harm minimisation:

* Accessibility which of course has just gone through the roof. I can walk to at least 5 pokie pubs from my place but not one licensed club. This would be common for many people so surely that has exacerbated the issue. The argument that clubs put so much back into the community is largely a hollow argument - have a look at the financial statements of any licensed club and you'll see that the whole shebang is funded by gambling losses and their "community" funding is usually very modest. They really exist as a reverse form of welfare that feathers the nest of club management.

* Win limit - gambling experts agree that one single change would probably turn the majority of problem gamblers from the addiction. And that is reducing the win limit to $500 at most or preferably $250. See it is the lure of the big win that keeps people chasing their losses. And going back to coins rather than letting note acceptors take $100 bills at a time (how sick is that) would also help. This second point alone would have been much more effective than the entire Wilkie proposal that failed in parliament which was impractical and impossible to implement effectively.

* Bet limit - reducing from $5 to $1 would clearly help but many see it as less effective than reducing the win limit

For all the problems Pokies present a solution that would genuinely ease the suffering are relatively straightforward. But nobody has the political will to make it happen.

Apologies again for going OT

Don't apologise cause I don't think your OT. To address the issue of AFL clubs dependence on gambling machines I think you have to look at the whole picture not just one thing in isolation. Just like the academies. Your suggestions are very very good and would help communities a lot with the gambling machine issues which then flow onto afl clubs gambling machines. Over here the pub/bar scene is very enjoyable to walk into. A lot like when I was younger over east. A meal, music n jiggle the hips later in the night while meeting people from your local area talking about local issues n national issues, footy, cricket, bands etc Not watching zombies walk in n just hearing ding ding ding all night and watching em walk out with empty pockets wondering how their gona pay the rent.

[bloodspirit]

I was in the car listening to ABC radio just after 3 this afternoon and Stephen Mayne (Walkley Award winning journalist, Crikey founder and former consultant of the Australian Shareholder Association Stephen Mayne - Wikipedia) was interviewed about the influence of pokies and gambling on government, especially in NSW. Mayne said that the AFL is making some tentative efforts to combat the destructive influences of gambling under Gill (whereas the NRL are hopelessly in the gambling industry's thrall - Canterbury Bulldogs are apparently almost entirely dependent on pokies revenue). However, Mayne pointed out that Andrew Pridham, in his role as Managing Director and Head of Investment Banking for Australia at NY based bank Moelis & Co, is "fronting" the acquisition of Redcape (a group of gambling pubs that earn a lot of revenue in poor areas of Sydney (like Fairfield) causing particularly high levels of losses per pokie machine and bragging in their prospectus about taking advantage of lax regulations in NSW). He suggested this is quite embarrassing for Andrew Pridham and I tend to agree. Andrew Pridham's contact details at Moelis are published on their website [email protected] and T: +61 2 8288 5537: Sydney ? Moelis & Company.

I guess big business gets its hands dirty and if we probe the work of various board members we will inevitably find other distasteful details. Even still, this is fairly high profile and, if it is being discussed on ABC Radio Drive segment, has the potential to embarrass our club significantly - albeit not likely to lead to the same pressure on Pridham that Worner faced after revelations about his (quite different and illegal) scandalous conduct. Watch this space to see if there is any more news about this.

Here's a link to the audio of the Drive show I heard: ABC Radio. The interview with Stephen Mayne begins about 2 minutes in.

I like the points you make, Thunder Shaker and MP.