Changes for Rnd 19 V Hawthorn

[caj23]

I mentioned in the Finals thread about the number of best 22 Hawthorn have missing and it's quite an impressive list

Birchall
Rioli
Puopolo
Stratton
Frawley
O'Meara
Ceglar* is he first choice ruck?
Gibson* likely retirement

We have our best 22 playing this game so no excuses, must beat them and in my mind must beat them well given the number of young/second choice players fronting for them this week.

We said the same thing last time we played them!

[liz]

But has he been more effective than Robinson? Newman has more weapons/ceiling than Robbo

And while Robinson has been tasked with a defensive role in the last three weeks, he wasn't in the team before then (mostly through injury) and only got his chance because Kennedy was initially out for a week, and then Hayward was injured. So I don't think the role he is playing is critical to the team's structure. Hewett was probably getting Robinson's tasks before Robinson came into the team and could presumably revert to those kind of roles again.

[CureTheSane]

Florent was one of the quieter players against NT. Unless there's a need to elevate players (ie through injury) I can't see him coming into the side at the expense of anyone who played last week. Hayward made his case for a senior recall far more emphatically, but I still doubt he'll get a go.

Florent & Hayward > Robinson for me.
In fact untried Dawson > Robinson at the moment for me.

[Go Swannies]

Let's cut to the crunch. Do we tag Mitchell - and if so, who?

[Markwebbos]

Let's cut to the crunch. Do we tag Mitchell - and if so, who?

In theory yes. Do we have a tagger who'd do a good job?
Someone suggested Kizza. I wonder if Towers didn't ruck he could be a good tagger?

[Mel_C]

We also have to watch for Gunston and Sicily running out from the backline. Our forwards need to be accountable and apply pressure. My one worry having Sinclair at FF is that his opponent will run away from him, (although not because of his lack of effort.)

I really really hate having to play Hawthorn especially here in Melbourne. Sitting next to their feral supporters is painful and for some reason we never seem to be able to win comfortably against them.

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

[Levii3]

Let's cut to the crunch. Do we tag Mitchell - and if so, who?

Shaun Burgoyne needs to be tagged more than Mitchell.

[wolftone57]

I have often felt we really need a stronger comp for our reserves players than NEAFL standard. However, the performances of the guys moving up over the last year or so belie that.

Maybe the Swans ressies coaching has improved dramatically; maybe the calibre and preparedness of recruits for firsts standard football is higher... I'm unsure.

I do remain convinced that the NEAFL standards haven't improved.

Any thoughts on this guys?

The NEAFL standard has improved remarkably. It is just that we have a super reserves side. Not only that Rhyce Shaw has been a revelation as coach. He is always able to come up with tactics to not only match the opposition during a game but to demolish their game plan. GWS are bottom, Suns 5th and Lions are fighting tooth and nail to keep Sydney Uni out of second spot. Last week NT Thunder had 8 players missing and Uni 5. So this made their task very difficult playing the two top Reserves teams. Uni were down in numbers when we met them the last time too. We have been very good at training our Academy Top Ups with our main group so they know what is expected of them. We are also lucky the Academy year has so many talented players who have been taught the benefit of teamwork and team coordination. The non reserves sides are improving all the time as they recruit players from the other states, get Academy boys who haven't been drafted and manage to get better and bigger sponsorship.

There is still a long way to go but the NEAFL is heading in the right direction.

[wolftone57]

I'm surprised no one has suggested that we drop Naismith instead of the conversation being limited to a choice between Reid and Sinclair. Naismith has been passable, but nothing special in the ruck. In 12 games he's only taken 23 marks and hasn't kicked a goal, so hasn't contributed much around the ground either.

I would bring Tippett in for Naismith and leave Sinclair at FF. It would give a chance for Naismith to freshen up with a week off. We can decide which 2 should play the following week out of Tippett, Naismith, Sinclair and Reid based on their relative performances and training form. I don't think we will be going back to a 2 ruckmen system after finally making the structural change to 1 ruckman. But we can have 2 ruck/forwards divide the workload in the ruck and forward.

Robinson hasn't been all that impressive in his 3 weeks back from injury and NEAFL. Dawson's form is just too good to overlook. I would make the swap this week. With a bye week for the reserves, there's no reason to wait. We've seen enough.

Summary
In: Tippett, Dawson
Out: Naismith, Robinson

Tippett is a forward/ruckman not a ruckman. he averages 13.5 HO this year to Naismith's 27.9. they also play very different roles. Naismith does not rest forward very often, Tippett does. Yet Tippett has kicked the same amount of goals on average this year as Naismith, 0.6. Naismith sets up as a defensive ruckman between centre and CHB when they are bringing the ball out of defence. He closes the centre square gap and makes it hard for them to move the ball through the centre. He even got hold of Joey Montagna and a couple of others trying it last weekend. Not so slow for a big man. I don't know if Tippett can play that role as he is just a bit slower than Big Sam.

As much as I'd love to see Dawson get a run it all depends on how we are going to play the Hawks. Do we tag certain players, Hewett on Mitchell, Robbo on Smith etc? Or do we play head to head? I think that a pretty stupid thing to do. Who do we play on Gunston? He was sensational last week getting 29 disposals across HB. We need to put a defensive forward, or a forward who can more than match him and make them pay, on him. Gunston is a very good mark so the other thing we could do is bring Dawson in and make Gunston accountable. Dawson is just as good or even better in the marking contest and more than matches Gunston at ground level. In fact at ground level I'd say Dawson is far more clever.

[Matty10]

I mentioned in the Finals thread about the number of best 22 Hawthorn have missing and it's quite an impressive list

Birchall
Rioli
Puopolo
Stratton
Frawley
O'Meara
Ceglar* is he first choice ruck?
Gibson* likely retirement

We have our best 22 playing this game so no excuses, must beat them and in my mind must beat them well given the number of young/second choice players fronting for them this week.

Their last five weeks has been very impressive. They have beaten Adelaide, Collingwood and Fremantle. They drew with GWS (in a game they lost by one second), and would have beaten Geelong had Smith kicked truly.

Six weeks ago I was very bullish about thumping Hawthorn at the 'G, but their recent form has made me doubt. Also, if they win their last five games they will make the finals (and I am sure they know this).

This might be a very tough encounter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ludwig]

Tippett is a forward/ruckman not a ruckman. he averages 13.5 HO this year to Naismith's 27.9. they also play very different roles. Naismith does not rest forward very often, Tippett does. Yet Tippett has kicked the same amount of goals on average this year as Naismith, 0.6. Naismith sets up as a defensive ruckman between centre and CHB when they are bringing the ball out of defence. He closes the centre square gap and makes it hard for them to move the ball through the centre. He even got hold of Joey Montagna and a couple of others trying it last weekend. Not so slow for a big man. I don't know if Tippett can play that role as he is just a bit slower than Big Sam.

You are simply defining what Naismith does and calling it a role. It is more a statement about his limitations. He can only play as a ruckman, otherwise he doesn't have a spot in the side. He's a good ruckman, but certainly not a dominant ruckman. He was outplayed in the ruck by Billy Longer. Neither did much around the ground. When we last played Hawthorn Tippett and Sinclair shared the ruck duties and dominated McEvoy. We clearly won the hitouts and the clearances, despite losing the game.

Tippett has only played 5 games this year, one of which he injured his ankle in the first quarter and was clearly not fit when he next played against GWS, so the stats are not a good indication of what he is capable of. I don't know if he can get back to his best, which most would say was the first half of last year before his hamstring injury. At that time he was our number 1 ruckman and also kicked plenty of goals.

Tippett, Sinclair and Cameron can all play as ruckmen, but can also hold down a role as a forward. I think that flexibility is a positive.

Looking at the current situation, we have 2 spots to fill with 4 possible candidates: Naismith, Sinclair, Reid and Tippett. We are not going back to playing 2 ruckmen + another forward. If Reid is fit, he plays the forward role, so it's down to who should play in the ruck. Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his career best performance, which would mean that Naismith would go out anyway if Reid plays. I'm assuming that Reid will be given another week off, so this may be the last chance to give Tippett a go in the senior side. When Reid is back Tippett will have to get past both Sinclair and Naismith to get into the side.

Tippett, at his best, is our fist choice ruckman. I would like to see how he goes before we put a line through him for the rest of year.

[liz]

Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his career best performance, which would mean that Naismith would go out anyway if Reid plays.

Sinclair is undroppable this round based on his performance as a key forward, not as a ruckman. He spent barely any (if any) time in the ruck last week. His contribution was clunking marks and kicking goals. You wouldn't elevate him into the number one ruck role based on that performance any more than you'd move Melican to full forward based on his excellent game in defence.

If Reid comes back into the side it will be

a) as a third tall forward (alongside Buddy and Sinclair)
b) because either Buddy or Sinclair is injured
c) at the expense of Sinclair.

c) won't happen this week (unless b also applies) but it could the following week if Sinclair has little impact against the Hawks.

It is possible, somewhere down the track, that the coaches decide that Tippett and Sinclair can share rucking and forward duties and that Naismith makes way. But I see close to zero chance of Sinclair playing as the sole ruckman while Naismith is fit and available, not even as a means to squeeze Reid into the side.

[wolftone57]

Robinson is the Swans first choice lock down player and has been very effective in this role. Hayward is on a different level. In the NEAFL game last week against NT he was in class of his own. His marking, positioning and pace were elite. Clearly BOG.
Tippett was effective but Hayward was dominant.

I don't agree with you that Hayward was BOG. I think Dawson was and so did the coaches. Let's face it 40 disposals, 8 tackles and 3 goals is pretty good.Hayward a close second

[wolftone57]

In theory yes. Do we have a tagger who'd do a good job?
Someone suggested Kizza. I wonder if Towers didn't ruck he could be a good tagger?

Hewett will get Mitchell

[Doctor]

I'm surprised no one has suggested that we drop Naismith instead of the conversation being limited to a choice between Reid and Sinclair. Naismith has been passable, but nothing special in the ruck. In 12 games he's only taken 23 marks and hasn't kicked a goal, so hasn't contributed much around the ground either.

I would bring Tippett in for Naismith and leave Sinclair at FF. It would give a chance for Naismith to freshen up with a week off. We can decide which 2 should play the following week out of Tippett, Naismith, Sinclair and Reid based on their relative performances and training form. I don't think we will be going back to a 2 ruckmen system after finally making the structural change to 1 ruckman. But we can have 2 ruck/forwards divide the workload in the ruck and forward.

Robinson hasn't been all that impressive in his 3 weeks back from injury and NEAFL. Dawson's form is just too good to overlook. I would make the swap this week. With a bye week for the reserves, there's no reason to wait. We've seen enough.

Summary
In: Tippett, Dawson
Out: Naismith, Robinson

We live in crazy times. Ludwig hasn't called for Aliir's inclusion. :-)