Danny Frawley

[KTigers]

I think sometimes the press doesn't mention suicide outright initially because there is a feeling that the family members have enough to deal
with, without them also having to deal with the fact that the whole world knows this extremely personal & terrible thing has happened to
them. We bag the press a lot, but sometimes they can be quite sensitive to other peoples' suffering.

[Ludwig]

Unfortunately, suicide is stigmatized in the West where Christian culture characterizes it as a sin. We can compare this to Asian cultures, particularly Japanese, where suicide is regarded as atonement for dishonor.

It's interesting how one culture views suicide as shameful while another views it as atonement for shame.

Much of the psychological maladies of modern society is connected to one's personal status in one's social group, which can be measured in diverse ways, and often ways which we are not fully cognizant. In this sense, we are not very different from our primate cousins that exhibit similar behaviours related to status.

Loss of status, effectively failure of some sort, especially failure to meet one's own expectations or those of friends and family, can usually be traced as the source of anxiety, depression and related syndromes.

There is no easy solution to these problems, as depression and suicide are are on the increase in many countries around the world (but on a sharp decline in China, by contrast). What needs to change is the way we value status in our society. The value of one's status or worth is determined by others, so we often feel locked into a lifestyle where 'failure' may have a relatively high probability. Alternatives, like 'dropping out' can be difficult and also viewed as failure. To leave the group and seek a life on one's own is not a natural state for most humans (something identified by Erich Fromm, for example).

Perhaps we can view Danny Frawley's death not as a tragedy, or even with sadness, but rather a rational choice to depart the world with respect and not have that respect diminished by an impending loss of status. The real sadness is that our society is unlikely to head in a direction where such outcomes are less likely.

Perhaps we on RWO can place less importance on winning, swim against the tide of footy industry mouthpieces, and enjoy our Swans for just going out and playing football, and find pleasure in whatever the numbers on the scoreboard might be. We are brainwashed into valuing our team in terms of success, failure and ladder position (status), thus mirroring the value system of society as a whole, invoking anxiety, depression and frustration when our team is seen as failing.

We have in our power to measure success and failure by the metrics we choose, if we take the freedom to do so. We have the capacity to eliminate failure as one of the options. Let's do it.

[bloodspirit]

If Spud killed himself, given the circumstances as far as I know them, I cannot view it as a rational decision. I think it was a spur of the moment decision taken out of desperation and redolent of irrational fears. And I am often on the other side of this argument with my friend who is a doctor and who says suicide is NEVER a rational choice, whereas I think it can be.

[0918330512]

If Spud killed himself, given the circumstances as far as I know them, I cannot view it as a rational decision. I think it was a spur of the moment decision taken out of desperation and redolent of irrational fears. And I am often on the other side of this argument with my friend who is a doctor and who says suicide is NEVER a rational choice, whereas I think it can be.

Medically assisted suicide for terminal illnesses, that seems rational (particularly when you need a couple of doctors to assess and sign off).

Deliberately veering into a tree at 100km an hour ... when there is a chance you might survive (and be a massive mess as a result); not to mention potentially not considering the impact it will have on those nearest & dearest to you?

[0918330512]

I find it somewhat distasteful that eBay listings of signed Danny Frawley items has tripled since yesterday.

[dejavoodoo44]

I think sometimes the press doesn't mention suicide outright initially because there is a feeling that the family members have enough to deal
with, without them also having to deal with the fact that the whole world knows this extremely personal & terrible thing has happened to
them. We bag the press a lot, but sometimes they can be quite sensitive to other peoples' suffering.

Yes, while I am a long way from being an expert on the subject, I suspect that one reason why a suicidal person would choose a car accident, rather than, say, a gunshot, would be their desire to have their friends and relatives believe that it was an accident. And of course, even though the circumstantial evidence looks like it could be suicide, none of us can definitely state, what exactly was in the person's mind, in the final few seconds of their life. For all we know, it could be psychosis, rather than depression? It could be an extreme reaction to medication? It could be an ill-advised attempt to withdraw from medication? Or it could even be falling asleep at the wheel?

[dejavoodoo44]

Unfortunately, suicide is stigmatized in the West where Christian culture characterizes it as a sin. We can compare this to Asian cultures, particularly Japanese, where suicide is regarded as atonement for dishonor.

It's interesting how one culture views suicide as shameful while another views it as atonement for shame.

Much of the psychological maladies of modern society is connected to one's personal status in one's social group, which can be measured in diverse ways, and often ways which we are not fully cognizant. In this sense, we are not very different from our primate cousins that exhibit similar behaviours related to status.

Loss of status, effectively failure of some sort, especially failure to meet one's own expectations or those of friends and family, can usually be traced as the source of anxiety, depression and related syndromes.

There is no easy solution to these problems, as depression and suicide are are on the increase in many countries around the world (but on a sharp decline in China, by contrast). What needs to change is the way we value status in our society. The value of one's status or worth is determined by others, so we often feel locked into a lifestyle where 'failure' may have a relatively high probability. Alternatives, like 'dropping out' can be difficult and also viewed as failure. To leave the group and seek a life on one's own is not a natural state for most humans (something identified by Erich Fromm, for example).

Perhaps we can view Danny Frawley's death not as a tragedy, or even with sadness, but rather a rational choice to depart the world with respect and not have that respect diminished by an impending loss of status. The real sadness is that our society is unlikely to head in a direction where such outcomes are less likely.

Perhaps we on RWO can place less importance on winning, swim against the tide of footy industry mouthpieces, and enjoy our Swans for just going out and playing football, and find pleasure in whatever the numbers on the scoreboard might be. We are brainwashed into valuing our team in terms of success, failure and ladder position (status), thus mirroring the value system of society as a whole, invoking anxiety, depression and frustration when our team is seen as failing.

We have in our power to measure success and failure by the metrics we choose, if we take the freedom to do so. We have the capacity to eliminate failure as one of the options. Let's do it.

Lots of interesting thoughts there. A lot of which I would like to reply to. But I have been out tonight, so I am not quite sober enough, to coherently explain why I agree with some of what you say, but disagree with other parts. But I will get back to you, within the next couple of days.

[Hotpotato]

Some useful reflections there Luds.

Danny was greatly adored in the footy community (I loved watching his good natured madness on Bounce) , however, it seems where it mattered most, at home, it was unravelling and he didn’t know where to turn to to fix it.
Many of us have had an investment go south or a biz go belly up and with it can go a lot of self esteem. then the relationship stress and financial hardship.
Successful sportspeople earn lots but with a cutoff point and the lack of ability to cope with change takes its toll.
Now his wife and daughters have a monumental change to cope with.
. They will need all the help they can get.
I’m surprised there’s not a Gofund page enacted by now.

[AnnieH]

Definitely suicide. Been speaking to a current VicPol member. He was doing a minimum of 110ks when he hit the tree. The advised speed there is 50ks. He certainly knew what he was doing. It's hard to fathom what would be going on in someones mind to do that to yourself. It must've been terrible for him.

The "rational" person is NOT making that decision. It's the irrational thoughts that do it.
No matter how well we know someone, how much they're our best friend, our soul mate, our other half, our world, our univierse... you will never, ever know what that person is thinking - unless they tell you.
My BIL sought/was in treatment. He was rational enough to write a letter and the passwords to his online life, but the irrational thoughts said that his heart was going to stop, and that's all there was to it.
It's not so devastating for the person who does commit suicide - they're free from their demons.
The mess they leave behind....

[AnnieH]

Its a concern that someone so aware of mental illnesses, the effects, the signs, and all the available help at his disposal... that this event still could not be stopped.

My BIL grew a mo for 10 years every movember.
Raised over $100K, yet still did it.
It's awful.
What's wrong with "men" (face it, the majority are men), that they think that the only way out is to kill yourself.
Women talk... should men be talking more? Should people listen to them and not discount what they say?
Like I said, anyone send me a PM if you need to talk... I won't judge you. (Even you, Barry. )

[KTigers]

The "rational" person is NOT making that decision. It's the irrational thoughts that do it.
No matter how well we know someone, how much they're our best friend, our soul mate, our other half, our world, our univierse... you will never, ever know what that person is thinking - unless they tell you.
My BIL sought/was in treatment. He was rational enough to write a letter and the passwords to his online life, but the irrational thoughts said that his heart was going to stop, and that's all there was to it.
It's not so devastating for the person who does commit suicide - they're free from their demons.
The mess they leave behind....

Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's the irrational (and often spontaneous) thoughts that make them do it.
Most of the time they are thinking rationally, just not ALL of the time. And when a person is dead, they are gone. It's the people
left behind that suffer. And sometimes they get angry at the person who committed suicide for hurting them this way.

[AnnieH]

Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's the irrational (and often spontaneous) thoughts that make them do it.
Most of the time they are thinking rationally, just not ALL of the time. And when a person is dead, they are gone. It's the people
left behind that suffer. And sometimes they get angry at the person who committed suicide for hurting them this way.

I'm still very angry at him for leaving behind a mess.
My sister and her son's lives are forever changed. Our family's life is forever changed. His family's lives are forever changed.
We learn to put our grief into our handbags and try to move on.
He had no financial problems, no job problems, no marital problems, no kid problems... the problems were in his head.
If you are thinking of committing suicide, I want your rational brain to just stop for one second, and think of the impact that it has on your loved ones and your friends.
There's NO problem that can't be sorted out.

[Hotpotato]

All so tragically close to home for you Annie.
Thank you for sharing.

[AnnieH]

My pleasure Hotpotato.
We TALK about it.
We should all talk about it and remove the stigma and shame.

[bloodspirit]

Annie, I appreciate your compassion and your care. But I'm confused by what you are saying. On the one hand you are saying we need to "remove the stigma and shame". But on the other hand, and very possibly I am misunderstanding you, you seem to be saying that you are angry with your brother in law for making a selfish choice that effectively ended his own suffering but didn't consider the impact of his actions on those around him. I would suggest this is exactly the outlook that does stigmatise suicide (and attempted suicide). Suicide is viewed as a weak and selfish action. Perhaps sometimes this condemnation is justified, but sometimes suicide is just a product of disease and chemical imbalances.

One thing I do understand you to be saying and completely agree with is: that we should remove the stigma around showing vulnerability, especially for men. Men are expected to be strong and stoic. Men are expected to 'suck it up' and 'just deal with it', whatever "it" is. The innate and learned capacity of men to just get on with things and to get things done (obviously not a capacity exclusive to men) is simulaneously something we value and problematic in the way it leads to the bottling up of emotions and expectations that can lead one to see suicide as the best choice and to not seek help.

To alleviate suicide as an issue, we need to be freer to fail and to admit to feeling hopeless, despairing, sad, angry, when we do feel that way. This is kind of the antithesis of the high performance industry that is footy, as Ludwig alluded to. Footy prides itself on being ruthless and unsentimental, driven by exacting standards. Failure is terminal, for players and for coaches and all staff. But ruthlessness and excellence have their dark side in their failure to tolerate anything less. (I wonder whether his nickname ever weighed on Danny Frawley? Perhaps not because I understand it came about due to his potato farming background.)

So, I'm not sure exactly what the way forward is (I'm always for the middle path) but it seems to me that the more we demand excellence and fail to tolerate failure in our players and coaches, and generally in life, the more we contribute to social problems like depression, anxiety, and suicide. While, as I say, I'm not sure exactly of the way forward, I do think there are some positive changes that are already well under way, including:

* players being permitted and encouraged to speak more openly about issues;

* taking time off for mental health reasons has become more accepted and normal and not seen as a reason to write someone off;

* access to psychologists and counsellors has greatly increased and their use has become normalised and less stigmatised;

* the numerous articles and media publishing information about individuals' struggles with mental health issues has really helped make it ok for others to speak up about their own struggles and not just try to hide them behind a facade until they can't do it any more.