Rd 5 vs West Coast @ Optus - Pre-Game Thread

[i'm-uninformed2]

I think the debate around Kennedy needs to be centred around this:

We are currently deficient around the contest. When you look at both contested possessions and clearances, our best midfielders rank down the list. Hickey is our best clearance player on volume, closely followed by Mills and Rowbottom - but well down the list. Parker has the most CP, followed by Heeney and Mills - but again, well down the list. And I don't think you'd argue we're that efficient in taking the ball away from either situation.

2022 AFL League Total Clearances Leaders

If the coaches think JPK can assist with that, get him in there. If they don't, or they think having him in there compromises other facets of the game we want to play, then sadly, I'm not sure there is a place for him - and the rest of our midfield needs to pull their finger out when it gets tough in the guts. Hell, it basically took JMac - a skinny, fourth-year player - to drive in and will us over the line last week. That's great, but depending on that against the best teams ain't going to cut it.

The coaches identified pre-season our contested and clearance footy didn't match the best, so they know it's a problem. And without a resolution to it, our ability to run and run is compromised. Footy is still a simple game - and starts with winning the ball when the heat is really on, and then using it efficiently to march forward. And right now, we're not. Our defence is under pressure as a consequence, and you can't spend the whole game flinging the ball out of D50 when the best sides set up so well behind the ball.

My personal instinct is Joey is such a goddamn champion there is still a role for him rotating through there, but let's find out once and for all. We're currently stuck in no man's land with him. And bar Mills, no one else is playing consistently good inside footy.

[caj23]

Carlton have a glut of midfielders this season, perhaps we could trade for one of their better extractors from the middle, I think his name is George??

[TheBloods]

We have certainly struggled to get that breakaway game going this season and to use the corridor. Perhaps the answer lies in bringing in one or two of the midfielders from the Seconds? I think Stephens would be be well suited to the open spaces in Perth. One of Roberts or Sheldrick too? Its a risk but we have to get our movement going. McInerney, Ollie and the Chad are critical there. As is the Lizard off half-back. Our stoppage work has been average to poor also, and that's where the movement starts. A great challenge for our movement guru, Pike.

Agree . We need to get back to the team we had last yr

[Ludwig]

Centre bounces have been a problem for us and it's not clear what the solution is. The way we used to go about it doesn't work anymore. We have good midfielders, but other teams have better setups at the centre bounces. I have a few observations and suggestions:

1. Ruckmen around the league are giving away the most free kicks this year. Both Hickey and Ladhams give away far too many frees. We need to make a contest at stoppages without infringing. We might be able to swing 2 or 3 more clearances a game if we can just clean up this part of our act.
2. We need to adjust our CBA mids to the situation. We have to play the percentages based on what personnel the opposition have at the CB. There are some teams that are simply going to dominate us at the bounce, like playing against Max Gawn, Witts, Grundy and a fair few others. More often than not,we should have a defensive setup and plan on losing the hitout or it being a contested situation. A lot of work will have to go into planning for the game ahead and the kind of opposition we will be facing.
3. We can lose the clearance, but still be okay if the opposition is forced to kick blindly under pressure, which most often leads to a turnover and a good rebound opportunity.
4. There are 2 primary ways we are getting hurt at CBs. Taps to an opposition player on the move who takes to ball out the front door and is in our defensive 50 in 2 seconds. Actually, Ollie Florent seems to have become our best player in executing this play for us. The other is the opposition winning the ball and handballing back to a loose player behind the contest and moves the ball on to another player coming from either side. This also sets up a clear inside 50 kick. Good sides will have a forward leading into space to take a mark for a good shot on goal. We worked this effectively to JMac in the 4th qtr of the NM game.
5. We don't have top level CB specialists who we can rely on to win the CB contest, but what we do have is a large number of players who can do a job at the CBs. Maybe this can be our POD. We mix it up a lot.and make it difficult for the opposition to play against us because they don't know who's coming at them.
6. Speedy players are causing more damage at CBs than the hulks, which is a change from the old days. Florent, JMac and Chad were our most damaging CB players. Gulden and Papley, and perhaps Campbell can also be in our calculations for CBAs. We should have at least one of Mills, Parker and Rowbottom, perhaps 2 if one of them has a hard tagging role. So we should try to have 2 of our quicker players at most CBAs,. We need these quicker players to either get the clearance themselves or pressure the opposition when we lose the hitout. This is the reason why JPK is no longer getting CBAs. He can't defend when the opposition wins the ball.

We will leave it to the coaching staff to work out specific tactics. But that's my general plan to turn things around in this part of the game.

[i'm-uninformed2]

Centre bounces have been a problem for us and it's not clear what the solution is. The way we used to go about it doesn't work anymore. We have good midfielders, but other teams have better setups at the centre bounces. I have a few observations and suggestions:

1. Ruckmen around the league are giving away the most free kicks this year. Both Hickey and Ladhams give away far too many frees. We need to make a contest at stoppages without infringing. We might be able to swing 2 or 3 more clearances a game if we can just clean up this part of our act.
2. We need to adjust our CBA mids to the situation. We have to play the percentages based on what personnel the opposition have at the CB. There are some teams that are simply going to dominate us at the bounce, like playing against Max Gawn, Witts, Grundy and a fair few others. More often than not,we should have a defensive setup and plan on losing the hitout or it being a contested situation. A lot of work will have to go into planning for the game ahead and the kind of opposition we will be facing.
3. We can lose the clearance, but still be okay if the opposition is forced to kick blindly under pressure, which most often leads to a turnover and a good rebound opportunity.
4. There are 2 primary ways we are getting hurt at CBs. Taps to an opposition player on the move who takes to ball out the front door and is in our defensive 50 in 2 seconds. Actually, Ollie Florent seems to have become our best player in executing this play for us. The other is the opposition winning the ball and handballing back to a loose player behind the contest and moves the ball on to another player coming from either side. This also sets up a clear inside 50 kick. Good sides will have a forward leading into space to take a mark for a good shot on goal. We worked this effectively to JMac in the 4th qtr of the NM game.
5. We don't have top level CB specialists who we can rely on to win the CB contest, but what we do have is a large number of players who can do a job at the CBs. Maybe this can be our POD. We mix it up a lot.and make it difficult for the opposition to play against us because they don't know who's coming at them.
6. Speedy players are causing more damage at CBs than the hulks, which is a change from the old days. Florent, JMac and Chad were our most damaging CB players. Gulden and Papley, and perhaps Campbell can also be in our calculations for CBAs. We should have at least one of Mills, Parker and Rowbottom, perhaps 2 if one of them has a hard tagging role. So we should try to have 2 of our quicker players at most CBAs,. We need these quicker players to either get the clearance themselves or pressure the opposition when we lose the hitout. This is the reason why JPK is no longer getting CBAs. He can't defend when the opposition wins the ball.

We will leave it to the coaching staff to work out specific tactics. But that's my general plan to turn things around in this part of the game.

A good thread, and I posted something similar to point 6 - that is, the mix needs to complement each other - before. I'm certainly not advocating for three big , sluggish bulls being in there at once. And this is all certainly true around centre bounces. Your observation on Ollie's sharking skills is spot on, as is the role JMac played in the fourth quarter.

I think my concern extends however to stoppages and contested ball situations around the ground. If we're going to hold numbers around the ball, we need to be better at the release handball to a player on the move. Or, we need to hold a couple of players back to give the dynamic types a bit of room to move. Heeney for example, is excellent in powering away from stoppages with a bit of space. Right now, we're being stifled at the source, both due to our own deficiency at being first to it, and our lack of movement one play outside the contest.

[Ludwig]

We generally do better with around the ground stoppages. I often see Heeney around those stoppages and he's very good at winning the ball or tackling the opposition. I have to admit that I don't pay enough attention to those stoppage, probably because it happens too fast to notice who's in there, and then it all becomes a bit of chaos.

Our 4th qtr v. NM probably saw the stats heavily move in our favour. Overall for the game we won the stoppage clearances 30-18, a very healthy margin.

Iu2, I would love to see JPK make a comeback, but it's hard to see it happening. But I do think he's more than good enough to be the designated Medi sub. His experience and leadership alone makes him a reliable choice. He wouldn't be able to give us the zip that Ronke gave us when Franklin went out, but JPK would be someone we could put in the midfield and would do well when he's coming in fresh and going against a tried opposition.

[i'm-uninformed2]

We generally do better with around the ground stoppages. I often see Heeney around those stoppages and he's very good at winning the ball or tackling the opposition. I have to admit that I don't pay enough attention to those stoppage, probably because it happens too fast to notice who's in there, and then it all becomes a bit of chaos.

Our 4th qtr v. NM probably saw the stats heavily move in our favour. Overall for the game we won the stoppage clearances 30-18, a very healthy margin.

Iu2, I would love to see JPK make a comeback, but it's hard to see it happening. But I do think he's more than good enough to be the designated Medi sub. His experience and leadership alone makes him a reliable choice. He wouldn't be able to give us the zip that Ronke gave us when Franklin went out, but JPK would be someone we could put in the midfield and would do well when he's coming in fresh and going against a tried opposition.

Yep, I singled out Heeney too. It's why I like him playing wing, as he can be around the contest, but his capacity to power up and burst away is his real asset. He's far quicker than people realise, but he is above all a brutal surge runner and it doesn't matter whether it's over 5m or 80m - I'd hate to be the opponent on his tail. That, and the fact he's an excellent kick on both feet with a fraction of room (and, as you say, he makes tackles stick).

As an example of his surge running, check this out (go to about 11.20) - and I mentioned it the other day. When him and LDU, who is seriously quick, are on the wing together, LDU is bang on him, and on the correct side. By the time he takes the mark, Heeney has put 10m on him and LDU is broken. I know he doesn't start in the contest here and is playing essentially as a forward in this play, but it's just phenomenal and he does it from contests and stoppages too.

The Round So Far

I don't necessarily disagree on JPK. What I have noticed, and what lends credence to the medi sub concept, is he seems to be drifting more into the middle later in games. His big body crashing into tired opponents and ripping the ball away, can be lethal. But of course, you can't play medi sub every week.

I guess my main worry is he and the decision on him are in no man's land for now. He is a player of immense calibre and standing, and the way we're playing him does neither him or the team much justice.

[Ludwig]

Yep, I singled out Heeney too. It's why I like him playing wing, as he can be around the contest, but his capacity to power up and burst away is his real asset. He's far quicker than people realise, but he is above all a brutal surge runner and it doesn't matter whether it's over 5m or 80m - I'd hate to be the opponent on his tail. That, and the fact he's an excellent kick on both feet with a fraction of room (and, as you say, he makes tackles stick).

Dusty, Bont, Petracca. All great players. But IMO, Heeney is the best player going around the AFL today. Everything he does is elite.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

What worries me most with an inexperienced forward line is not so much the one-on-one contests (though that may prove an issue) but how much we potentially lose shape. Good key forwards develop synchronicity of how to work collectively to provide leading lanes and space for one another - yet how often have the collective we're likely to have this week done it as a group?

You think Buddy helps our forward line retain shape? That's right up their with the claim made by the commentator about Buddy's aerial marking prowess. Buddy's effectiveness is his ability to do something with the ball whether he is leading up to the carrier, moving left, moving right or even going backwards - he's a 360' threat.
Becasue of that it must be incredibly difficult to synchronise with Buddy for any key forward, let lone a young one. I'm not sure whether their is a way for our second string key forwards to stay out of Buddy's way - short of crossing the boundary line and enjoying the show from the stands.

Dusty, Bont, Petracca. All great players. But IMO, Heeney is the best player going around the AFL today. Everything he does is elite.

Maybe, although a little more consistancey of output, say an extra 5 posessions (of the same quality) per game would help remove all doubt.

[i'm-uninformed2]

You think Buddy helps our forward line retain shape? That's right up their with the claim made by the commentator about Buddy's aerial marking prowess. Buddy's effectiveness is his ability to do something with the ball whether he is leading up to the carrier, moving left, moving right or even going backwards - he's a 360' threat.
Becasue of that it must be incredibly difficult to synchronise with Buddy for any key forward, let lone a young one. I'm not sure whether their is a way for our second string key forwards to stay out of Buddy's way - short of crossing the boundary line and enjoying the show from the stands.

Oh, I get all that.

Maybe my post took a long-winded route to get to the main point I was (trying) to make and (maybe not well) made further down. Which is when you have a collective of inexperienced forwards, if the midfield ain't moving the ball well, they get sucked further and further up the ground in search of a kick, and players as smart as McGovern will sag back all night plucking the ball out of the air as it heads near or into the 50.

To be really clear, I'm not wanting to hang any crap on the forwards here. I'm putting the heat on the players up the ground to make it easier for them.

[Mountain Man]

I wonder if JPK would be more value in clearances work (particularly centre bounces) in the first 15 minutes of a quarter, or the last 15 minutes.

In the former role it would be to be aggressive with the opponents and hence tire them; in the latter period, using his big strength to rip the ball from them.

JMac was so effective in the 4th quarter of the match against North, possibly because it was the fourth quarter.

[Faunac8]

Dusty, Bont, Petracca. All great players. But IMO, Heeney is the best player going around the AFL today. Everything he does is elite.

Agreed he only needs 10 minutes to turn a game and he is going to be the face of the Swans moving forward.
My long suffering wife who is no football expert often says when she does watch a game and he gets possession that he makes it look easy and that he seems to have a bit more time than the rest.
I still suggest that those who are inclined to get on him for the Brownlow as he is still paying $21

[Bexl]

Agree . We need to get back to the team we had last yr

Great Idea. Can you please call Adelaide and get them to send Dawson back. Thanks.

[Nico]

I still maintain that Heeney is far better value as a forward. His ground ball gets and snaps are elite. He causes chaos to defences.

[TheBloods]

Great Idea. Can you please call Adelaide and get them to send Dawson back. Thanks.

Stuff him , get it in Campbels hands more . Best thing about him is that the other team goes to Blakey and just means Campbell and Jmac can do more .