Rd 13 vs St Kilda @ SCG - Match Thread

[Roadrunner]

Ditto

Wolfie, please get a grip! Yes, it was an awful game. Mistakes were made all around- Saints players were often on their own with no Swan within Cooee- was this a coaching issue?

Yes, our forward line was missing and all over the place. I watched Carlton yesterday and Mackay was on the wing a lot, instead of up front. Sometimes players decide to take things on themselves.
We are greatly affected by key injuries but the effort was there- we simply weren’t good enough on the night and copped several awful umpiring decisions at crucial times in the game.

So you can criticise the coaches and the game plan all you want- we’ve all heard it but please enough already!

[caj23]

Let’s be honest, we were terrible on Thursday night

Yes we have injuries, and the umpires pulled their usual stunt, but I don’t think posters should be slammed for venting their frustrations.

If you don’t like a comment or a poster, you don’t have read to read or respond to their posts, it’s not that hard.

The incessant whinging about other people’s posts and personal attacks is much worse than anything anyone posts on this site

I’ve blocked most of the game from my memory and don’t wish to rehash my frustrations, so a couple of positives:

Ollie was immense, he’s really come of age this season. As per Wolfie I’d like to see him back in the mids where we need him more

Sheldrick had a good game and got plenty of the ball. Hopefully the MC continue to play him in the centre as this season should be looked as a development one now. His disposal still needs to improve though

The reserves won, the new recruits looked good, and most of the young guys managed to hit double figure possessions yay

[Roadrunner]

Let’s be honest, we were terrible on Thursday night

Yes we have injuries, and the umpires pulled their usual stunt, but I don’t think posters should be slammed for venting their frustrations.

If you don’t like a comment or a poster, you don’t have read to read or respond to their posts, it’s not that hard.

The incessant whinging about other people’s posts and personal attacks is much worse than anything anyone posts on this site

I’ve blocked most of the game from my memory and don’t wish to rehash my frustrations, so a couple of positives:

Ollie was immense, he’s really come of age this season. As per Wolfie I’d like to see him back in the mids where we need him more

Sheldrick had a good game and got plenty of the ball. Hopefully the MC continue to play him in the centre as this season should be looked as a development one now. His disposal still needs to improve though

The reserves won, the new recruits looked good, and most of the young guys managed to hit double figure possessions yay

Good post caj- I thought Ollie was our best by far! Ramps was underdone but still was very good. As I said previously, we had some passengers, which only a star studded team can afford and that’s not us at this stage.

So back to the ressies for Clarke and Wicks and a week’s rest for Wilbur to make him realise that he needs to be more consistent- his best is very good but you can’t play like he did on Thursday night- what did he contribute?

[Scottee]

God we were awful. And goodness it was a shocking game. And holy crap the umpires were beyond incompetent. Just a dreadful advertisement for the code, let's hope we don't see another like it any time soon.

The game has become almost illegible due to the rules being so inconsistently administered, which means it can hardly be called a code any more.Beyond a joke.

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[Ludwig]

The upside of losing this game is that our fight for the 2023 premiership is well and truly over and we can now direct our focus toward making a big comeback in 2024. Lance Franklin has achieved his milestones in games and goal; the sentimental supporters have had a successful year. (It's amusing how many in the media are seriously talking about the possibility of Franklin continuing on next year).

Longmire shouldn't be judged harshly for our failure this year. So much has gone wrong. But he should be judged on his ability to live in the reality of the situation and make the kind of decisions that will best help the team in the coming years.

Some players will be returning from injury, while others will surely get injured, so there's no definitive way to go about this process. It's more a roadmap than an exact plan. We may have players who are playing with injuries contributing to subpar form, like Isaac Heeney. Those players should be given time to completely recover.

Here are a few suggestions on playing out the season:

• Franklin shouldn't be selected again this year, except for a sub and perhaps a sendoff game.
• We should be playing Buller and Arnold asap. They are mature players, so once they understand our game plan they should be considered for selection.
• We should try McLean in defence. I like what he's done when he's gone behind the ball. He reads the play well when behind the ball and can take a strong mark. He looks like he could be a good defender.
• Clarke cannot play to our game plan. He has a great attitude, but doesn't have the tools to make it work.
• Parker will be coming back from suspension and Mills shouldn't be far behind, so our midfield is pretty solid. Sheldrick should stay in the side and play as much as possible on ball.
• The club will have some idea on how we are doing with targeted players, like Himmelberg, and should play out this year with that in mind.
• I would like to see HHK get some AFL games. I think his long term prospects are better than Stephens', despite Stephens racking up possessions and tackles in the VFL; IMO, Corey Warner is more effective, even with lesser stats. It doesn't mean that Stephens shouldn't be given another go at AFL level, but I see him more likely to be a trade or delisting than making it as a Swan.

[barry]

I agree with that ludders, but I'd also be giving Stephens more game time in the seniors. Get games under the belt, and in a position that suits him.

[Ludwig]

I agree with that ludders, but I'd also be giving Stephens more game time in the seniors. Get games under the belt, and in a position that suits him.

I know you can relate to this if I say that Stephens is like a Gary Rohan. So much unfulfilled potential.

With elite speed, endurance and a penetrating pick, Stephens should be an elite player, but he's an ineffective players even when his stats look good.

I think Stephens could be tried as a pressure forward and build his game from there. He could play the role we have slated for Clarke, but Stephens is too fast to scoot past, like Clarke is so often.

I wouldn't mind seeing a small forward group of Stephens, Wicks and HHK. All are quick and have good skills, and Hugo, at least, is a good decision maker.

It's a good time to try out these things and see how it goes.

[Meg]

Rd 13 vs St Kilda @ SCG - Match Thread

.... can someone explain where the mark is?
...

I don’t know when the mark was paid and where it counts. Is it whilst the player was still in the air just at the 50 meter line even if the whistle is not blown until he lands 1-2 meters outside the 50?
....

I was interested in your question Maltopia. No one has responded which might mean that, like me, no one is sure of the correct answer!

I have always assumed that the mark was the location on the ground where the marker landed. However your alternative suggestion - the location on the ground at the point where the marker took control of the ball - is not something I had previously considered.

In most cases, the two options would effectively be the same. But there are examples where a marker’s momentum causes them to land beyond the point where they took control. The Mark where a player is deemed to have taken control before they land over the boundary line is one example.

This is what the Laws say:

15.3 LOCATION OF THE MARK
“Where a field Umpire is of the opinion that a Player has taken a Mark, the field Umpire shall award the Mark to the Player at the location on the Playing Surface where the Mark was taken. This location on the Playing Surface is known as The Mark.”

But no explicit definition of the location on the ground which is determined to be ‘where the Mark was taken’.

The definitions at the front of the Laws say: “The Mark: the position on the Playing Surface where a Free Kick or Mark has been awarded ......”

Combined with the clarification re over the boundary line (quoted below), I now wonder whether your suggestion might be correct: that the location on the ground which equals ‘where the Mark was taken’ is the spot that is immediately below where the umpire judges the player took control of the ball.

As you have said, that spot can sometimes be several metres behind the location on the ground where the marker lands.

Does anyone confidently know?

(I have excluded reference to the Gulden 50 metre penalty as I don’t want to divert any comments on to that decision. I think we probably all agree that the umpire’s botched call made this penalty very unfair.)


15.2 PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES
“(a) For the avoidance of doubt, a Mark shall be awarded if:
(i) a Player catches or takes control of the football before it has passed completely over the Boundary Line, Goal Line or Behind Line; “

[BRS328]

BRS328

The negativity is wearing me down. We’ve played with half a team for virtually the whole year. But t of course that is irrelevant to the usual suspects most of whose comments are like broken record put on repeat whenever we lose. You can’t call yourself a supporter if your ONLY comments are aimed at deriding the team and it’s staff.

+1

[i'm-uninformed2]

I want to be clear in saying this I’m not in the sack Longmire camp. The opposite in fact. We’re lucky to have a coach who consistently preaches and teaches excellence. But I hope does do a short sharp review of the football department at the end of the year, in the way mature clubs do.

It’d allow them to test:

* what’s the right role for the senior coach, and the right mix of assistants to support that. I’m not saying what is there is wrong, but the club should satisfy itself. We were all enthused by Pyke’s influence, so has it waned or have sides worked us out? How does our midfield coach do such a poor job of resolving our centre square and contested work?
* Our injury list this year. Some have been bad luck (the McCartins), dumb luck (Rampe) but there’s also been an extensive list of injuries. We should check it out.
* Our preseason. Which may be related to above or not, but when I watch our running power, it seems down this year. How much is due to the discontinuity from so many injuries, I don’t know. But we’ve often lacked hard, gut, surge, run that was a feature of our game last year.
* Player development. We’ve historically got this very right, and we still often do. For example, Logan McDonald was on track to be a 40 goal, third year key forward - which is exceptional. And McAndrew is another from the opposite end of the draft who’s developed nicely. But there have been some flaws, and Stephens is one. So what’s happened there.

None of this is unusual. Good clubs have a bit of a rut year and do it quietly, professionally, and purposefully. We may not even announce it. But I hope we do it.

Mainly because I’m optimistic about our long term trend. We have an elite group of under 23s, an excellent draft/trading hand and a stable club. So it’s worth refining or remedying what needs attention.

[MattW]

The upside of losing this game is that our fight for the 2023 premiership is well and truly over and we can now direct our focus toward making a big comeback in 2024. Lance Franklin has achieved his milestones in games and goal; the sentimental supporters have had a successful year. (It's amusing how many in the media are seriously talking about the possibility of Franklin continuing on next year).

Longmire shouldn't be judged harshly for our failure this year. So much has gone wrong. But he should be judged on his ability to live in the reality of the situation and make the kind of decisions that will best help the team in the coming years.

Some players will be returning from injury, while others will surely get injured, so there's no definitive way to go about this process. It's more a roadmap than an exact plan. We may have players who are playing with injuries contributing to subpar form, like Isaac Heeney. Those players should be given time to completely recover.

Here are a few suggestions on playing out the season:

• Franklin shouldn't be selected again this year, except for a sub and perhaps a sendoff game.
• We should be playing Buller and Arnold asap. They are mature players, so once they understand our game plan they should be considered for selection.
• We should try McLean in defence. I like what he's done when he's gone behind the ball. He reads the play well when behind the ball and can take a strong mark. He looks like he could be a good defender.
• Clarke cannot play to our game plan. He has a great attitude, but doesn't have the tools to make it work.
• Parker will be coming back from suspension and Mills shouldn't be far behind, so our midfield is pretty solid. Sheldrick should stay in the side and play as much as possible on ball.
• The club will have some idea on how we are doing with targeted players, like Himmelberg, and should play out this year with that in mind.
• I would like to see HHK get some AFL games. I think his long term prospects are better than Stephens', despite Stephens racking up possessions and tackles in the VFL; IMO, Corey Warner is more effective, even with lesser stats. It doesn't mean that Stephens shouldn't be given another go at AFL level, but I see him more likely to be a trade or delisting than making it as a Swan.

It's been a privilege watching Buddy play for the Swans the last 9.5 years. I've said many times that I experience more joy when Buddy kicks a goal than any other player.

However, it's been a bit sad watching him this year. It crossed my kind after last week's game that after he was so emotional before the game, and having played his 350th and moved to outright 4th on the goalkickers list, that he might retire. And it feels a fitting time.

However, having reflected further, he won't. We're still undermanned and he won't want to retire when his position is not in doubt. But in a month or do, once Logan is back and Buller is settled in, it may be. It will be interesting to see what happens then.

I don't think they'll wait long to bring Buller in, or, at least, I don't think they should. He looks competitive and passionate - just what we need.

The recruitment of he and Arnold could unlock our list a little. Arnold is probably coming hard for Melican's spot.

McLean is our best contested mark with Reid out, and agree that he looking like he could replace Reid in the swingman role. His development this year has been impressive.

I hope Sheldrick survives Parker's return. Agree that Clarke should make way.

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[Industrial Fan]

Not sure if anybody saw the clip from Kane Cornes this week where he pointed out numerous examples of the “breach” Sheldrick committed in our game that weren’t paid.

It wasn’t the point of his piece (he was talking about there being no replacement for Brad Scott in the AFL so there is no rudder with football decisions) but I think it makes it more egregious that the 50 was paid just after Gulden and also just after the marking infringement against Hickey wasn’t paid a 50.

[chalbilto]

Hey Industrial Fan, I haven't seen the clip from Kane Cornes so can you tell us what is the "breach" he was referring to.

[Thunder Shaker]

The Tribunal lets Dan Butler off for his tackle on Nick Blakey. The verdict is in: Saints forward learns his fate at Tribunal

[Ruck'n'Roll]

We're still undermanned and he won't want to retire when his position is not in doubt.

Not sure we're undermanned up forward, Amarty and McLean are back - we only usually play 2 talls, and in the absence of responsibility Hayward isn't exactly thriving.
If we believe we are out of the finals then it'd be an ideal time for Buddy to retire (not advocating taking btw - that practice is pure poison to a clubs culture), although I believe it will be his decision - he will have a place in the team (and possibly the list) for as long as he wants.