2024 Pre Season

[Auntie.Gerald]

Giant do u mean that Simon came back and informed that if u can make the trades for

Brodie
Patch
Hamming
JJ

Just go for it

as I have minimal to add except for Green and well Cleary and Indi all coaching staff are well aware of at the Swans

So if we discount 2023 recruitments he has had minimal contribution at a net positive impact level ?

[giant]

Giant do u mean that Simon came back and informed that if u can make the trades for

Brodie
Patch
Hamming
JJ

Just go for it

as I have minimal to add except for Green and well Cleary and Indi all coaching staff are well aware of at the Swans

So if we discount 2023 recruitments he has had minimal contribution at a net positive impact level ?

I'm not entirely sure I've followed all of that, but yes, my view is that it's not clear to me that Dalrymple has significantly & positively shaped our squad. I don't really get the demarcation of his role versus Beatson's, but his name wasn't prominent in what we heard from our trades (as opposed to the roles played by Longmire, Harley & others) - that doesn't mean of course he played no role, just that he doesn't appear to have been the reason that those deals happened.

My assessment is mainly based on those draft years covered by IU2 in his post - a lot of draft picks for little payback to date.

[Auntie.Gerald]

Giant my gut feeling is that it may also have been that where we had picks he was NOT seeing a stack of talent in the drafts?

Ie no matter what…..u need a Simon Darymple to be out there reviewing all emerging draft players in Vic, SA, WA, Tassie etc as much as possible..

It could have been that Simon didn’t see great reasons to move up in the draft some years versus what was on offer? Or that our Academy players trumped similar picks anyway ?

It could have been we were not confident of landing a Patch Adams and or Brodie and we got very very lucky? Supposedly we were after Naughton 10yr contract ? Beatson did indicate we were interested.

We also had to go a couple of inside mids to replace Parker next couple of years and the options were not that standout in a couple drafts were we had picks. Maybe sheldrick is going to be a Lachie Neale or Luke Parker type gem…..too early to say either way.

Obviously the opportunity came along to add a couple proven elite players with great experience we jumped at that in 2023 but that doesn’t mean a talent scout is not doing their job.

The trades were better and we were ready to pounce on some serious trades after a fair few years of going to the draft.

If you can add two to three serious players to your best 22 each year that means over 8-10 years you have turned over your whole best 22. That is an amazing achievement in recruitment.

The other 5 are in my list above that had (7 players as standouts) are very strong talent identification and you could be adding Campbell to that list by end of 2024 season that makes 8.

But I suspect by end of 2024 we could have another 6 players from my list of 15 that would bump the recruitment efforts up to 14 plus players last 6 years being great acquisitions. Thats on track.

My gut feeling is also that we have a few slow burn players deliberately to hit their straps at more mature stages of their development like we saw with Dawso needing 3 to 4 pre seasons to get his tank to the level required.

This allows us to manage our cap and also play them in AFL at that 22/23 yrs old when really ready at all levels of AFL footy and truly can compete week in week out at a cardio body management level.

Only a small amount of players in each squad had out and out superior biomechanics.

80% plus of athletes are managing so many niggles just to get thru a season let alone a pre season - hence some players like Konstanty, Sheldrick etc can take longer to get to AFL and be a certain “yes” that was a good choice by a Simon Darymple

[i'm-uninformed2]

My understanding of the distinction in roles is Kinnear shapes the list, and Dalrymple the draft list.

So the trades would be lead by Kinnear. He’d also have a role in shaping the management of draft picks to accommodate trades, Academy requirements a year or two ahead, etc. Kinnear also has a lead responsibility in balancing between the two roles - for example, knowing what Dalrymple has in mind with the draft, looking at options for depth needs in roles using the whole set of tools available. I think given his length of tenure, he also has a philosophy that informs all elements. He’s been quite open in saying he believes best available in first round - which I personally don’t disagree with - and a premium is placed on character.

Dalrymple very much led the draft intelligence, analysis and ultimate selection of our draft order. So, on the plus side for example, you can give Dalrymple credit for picking Logan over Denver Grainger Barrass. We will be thanking him for that selection for the next decade. But the Stephens pick also sits on his head. He missed something about Stephen’s mental resilience, as it wasn’t raw talent that was the problem.

[wolftone57]

Except that we don't know if this behaviour (ie training over the Christmas break) is any different to past seasons. My guess is that it's not. Though that's totally a guess.

We also don't know, for sure, that they "were not fit enough and conditioned enough last season". Certainly there was an issue running out games, but there are other possible explanations.

I think the coaching staff decided to forgo the extra fitness training for skills work last year. We were into the ball work VERY early. Our skills did improve but our fitness was a HUGE worry. Injury, not running out games, lulls in games letting opponents back. They are all symptoms of low fitness levels.

I am hoping this year the fitness coaches can get a greater early season portion and get our blokes to optimum levels. Then the ball work will take care of itself because if fit you concentrate more, have more energy & are able to more easily perform skills training.

[wolftone57]

Dalrymple's record is mixed, to be honest.

It's skewed to a degree by the challenges of the COVID years, and the access to Academy talent we've had. You'd call the 2018 draft a success, '19 a bust offset by the exceptional upside of Chad, finding Hayden McLean a total gem, and you'd give Sheldrick a tick. Otherwise, meh or to be determined.

One thing that's a downside from his time - and I know the way the rookie list is used has changed a lot - but we traditionally were a club that found a bucket of talent via that method. From Nick Smith to Heath Grundy to Ramps. I know McLean wasn't technically a rookie, but I can't think of another great find outside the main draft during his time. Or am I having a brain fade?

Then again, that's all life of a recruiter.

2023; Too early to know
2022; not one draftee payed a single game
2021; McAndrew, Sheldrick, Roberts & Corey Warner all played games. Rankin did not & Lewis Taylor was only rookied because he had a contract
2020; McDonald, Campbell & Gulden have all become good players. The Rookie, Carruthers was delisted
2019; Mid Season rookies both delisted. Stephens at North. Gould delisted. E Taylor sacked. Chad Warner 60 & Rookie McLean 53, Rookies, Rowles & Maibaum delisted
2018; Blakey, Rowbottom & McInerney have combines for 267 games. Foot, tucker, Reynolds all delisted. Sam Wicks was a Rookie that year 50 games.

The ex Rookies or Rookies on the list;
Haydon McLean (Dalrymple)
Harry Cunningham (a Rookie out of Wagga at the recommendation of Paul Kelly)
Tom Papley (Pick 12 in 2016)
Sam Wicks (Dalrymple Acad)
Will Edwards (Dalrymple Acad)
Tom McCartin (Dalrymple but on the Swans VFL list)
Indi Kirk (Dalrymple Acad)
Jayden Maigor (Dalrymple)
Joel Amartey (2017)
Harrison Arnold (Dalrymple)
Jack Buller (Dalrymple)
Robbie Fox (2016)
Jake lloyd (2013 Rookie Draft, what a bloody bargain)
Lachlan McAndrew (Dalrymple Acad)

Only 2 Rookies that are directly from Dalrymple have played games. McLean & Buller. I do not count the Academy players as they are evident to Blind Freddy & any recruiter would easily get them.

[BRS328]

I’m and Ag
You are both right in your assessment’s, but I think everyone needs to understand that Dalrymple’s role as recruiting manager is to focus on the under age competitions around the country. He has a staff of paid assistants do the spotting and he collates the data.
Dalrymple reports directly to the list manager (Beatson) who in turn works closely with the coaches, football manager etc and formulate their needs.
I recently had a discussion with Kinnear who was saying how difficult it was for the recruiting manager during the Covid period because clubs were forced to reduce costs in their football departments. Part time recruiters were made redundant, and this affected all clubs as it was a matter of survival.
What made it worse, due to travel restrictions they could not travel interstate to look at prospective players, so they were relying on video footage which only tells part of the story.
Recruiting is a team effort, and you see it firsthand on draft night. Everyone has input.

[wolftone57]

Giant my gut feeling is that it may also have been that where we had picks he was NOT seeing a stack of talent in the drafts?

Ie no matter what…..u need a Simon Darymple to be out there reviewing all emerging draft players in Vic, SA, WA, Tassie etc as much as possible..

It could have been that Simon didn’t see great reasons to move up in the draft some years versus what was on offer? Or that our Academy players trumped similar picks anyway ?

It could have been we were not confident of landing a Patch Adams and or Brodie and we got very very lucky? Supposedly we were after Naughton 10yr contract ? Beatson did indicate we were interested.

We also had to go a couple of inside mids to replace Parker next couple of years and the options were not that standout in a couple drafts were we had picks. Maybe sheldrick is going to be a Lachie Neale or Luke Parker type gem…..too early to say either way.

Obviously the opportunity came along to add a couple proven elite players with great experience we jumped at that in 2023 but that doesn’t mean a talent scout is not doing their job.

The trades were better and we were ready to pounce on some serious trades after a fair few years of going to the draft.

If you can add two to three serious players to your best 22 each year that means over 8-10 years you have turned over your whole best 22. That is an amazing achievement in recruitment.

The other 5 are in my list above that had (7 players as standouts) are very strong talent identification and you could be adding Campbell to that list by end of 2024 season that makes 8.

But I suspect by end of 2024 we could have another 6 players from my list of 15 that would bump the recruitment efforts up to 14 plus players last 6 years being great acquisitions. Thats on track.

My gut feeling is also that we have a few slow burn players deliberately to hit their straps at more mature stages of their development like we saw with Dawso needing 3 to 4 pre seasons to get his tank to the level required.

This allows us to manage our cap and also play them in AFL at that 22/23 yrs old when really ready at all levels of AFL footy and truly can compete week in week out at a cardio body management level.

Only a small amount of players in each squad had out and out superior biomechanics.

80% plus of athletes are managing so many niggles just to get thru a season let alone a pre season - hence some players like Konstanty, Sheldrick etc can take longer to get to AFL and be a certain “yes” that was a good choice by a Simon Darymple

Everyone has offered Naughton 7 years @ great money.

Dawson was ready in his second season

I think Green & Snell will be top picks

[Auntie.Gerald]

Totally agree re Green and Snell show some qualities that are strongly in alignment with AFL footy in the future……..I’m sure Snelll has some significant area of improvement being a pick 50ish but he looks like a serious competitor and athlete for 194cm his ground ball and marking was 110% committed.

Dawso had played a total of 5 AFL games prior to entering his 4th season at the Swans

Re Naughton what I meant was mid season we were still negotiating and or sounding out whether he was a possibility to move clubs…….so I genuinely believe we may have been able to achieve Grundy and Naughton but it showed how late Patch really was to be a real possibility to trade for.

The post I did above was just indicating some of the complicating factors when assessing the youth head of recruitment as they can be trumped by seismic opportunities like Patch, Naughton, Grundy etc suddenly being available and a better fit for the cycle we are entering into as a squad.

Or that some players just are not quite ready at a tank vs positionally flexible for the 22 and or they have had a @@@@ty run of injuries and missed this critical pre seasons in the first couple years at the club.

I suspect a fairer point in time to assess will be another 12-18months from now.

[Auntie.Gerald]

In 2023 the 22yr old James Rowbottom broke Brett Kirk’s record set in 2009 for most tackles - 171.

James ranked fifth in the League through the home-and-away season behind Gold Coast’s Matt Rowell (190), Adelaide’s Rory Laird and Geelong’s Tom Atkins (185), and Western Bulldogs’ Marcus Bontempelli (172).

And he was Sydney’s No.1 tackler by a long way from Errol Gulden (116) and Luke Parker (110).

James played 12 games in his first year at the Swans which was a great effort for any 18year old.

I’m wondering if James role will evolve a little with the emergence of pick 24 Caiden Cleary and Sheldrick? Ie can James play a little more on the offensive if there is talent pushing for AFL footy?

Cleary similar skill levels in his draft year to James but Caiden looks quite strong and powerful already and his run time for 2km is exceptional. Top5at the club year 1 and top5 in the draft combine.

Caiden had the big benefit of a lot of footy last year in VFL but also interstate games for the draft. Plus knowing and training with the squad has been huge in adopting game awareness expected for AFL.

From what I saw of Caiden it will be hard to keep him out of the side by mid season if he has a simplified role ie tagging tackling / run with.

I can’t wait to see him more at pre season playing a similar role to Rowbottom on the other side and comparing their impact / influence around the contested ball.

Patch
Parker
Mills
Rowbottom
Cleary
Sheldrick
Grundy
Etc all scrapping for the loose ball and the tackle pressure.

Can’t help but think Wicks will be under some serious pressure to make the 22 given his limited role that can be a transitional role for a new emerging talent.

[dejavoodoo44]

In 2023 the 22yr old James Rowbottom broke Brett Kirk’s record set in 2009 for most tackles - 171.

James ranked fifth in the League through the home-and-away season behind Gold Coast’s Matt Rowell (190), Adelaide’s Rory Laird and Geelong’s Tom Atkins (185), and Western Bulldogs’ Marcus Bontempelli (172).

And he was Sydney’s No.1 tackler by a long way from Errol Gulden (116) and Luke Parker (110).

James played 12 games in his first year at the Swans which was a great effort for any 18year old.

I’m wondering if James role will evolve a little with the emergence of pick 24 Caiden Cleary and Sheldrick? Ie can James play a little more on the offensive if there is talent pushing for AFL footy?

Cleary similar skill levels in his draft year to James but Caiden looks quite strong and powerful already and his run time for 2km is exceptional. Top5at the club year 1 and top5 in the draft combine.

Caiden had the big benefit of a lot of footy last year in VFL but also interstate games for the draft. Plus knowing and training with the squad has been huge in adopting game awareness expected for AFL.

From what I saw of Caiden it will be hard to keep him out of the side by mid season if he has a simplified role ie tagging tackling / run with.

I can’t wait to see him more at pre season playing a similar role to Rowbottom on the other side and comparing their impact / influence around the contested ball.

Patch
Parker
Mills
Rowbottom
Cleary
Sheldrick
Grundy
Etc all scrapping for the loose ball and the tackle pressure.

Can’t help but think Wicks will be under some serious pressure to make the 22 given his limited role that can be a transitional role for a new emerging talent.

If Cleary was drafted in 2020, I possibly would have said that he was every chance to make his debut in round one, 2021, along with Gulden, Campbell and McDonald. However, with the depth we have now, I expect him to bide his time in the VFL, and only come into the side if we have plenty of injuries, or if he kicks the door down. Nothing against him. In his junior career, I thought that he continually rose to the challenge, and I expect that forcing his way into a very strong AFL side, will be another challenge that he successfully completes.

And just to stress our midfield depth, you left Chad Warner off your list, while Papley, Heeney and perhaps Campbell, should spend a bit of time in the inside mid rotation. Roberts and Corey Warner are probably AFL level, as well.

On Wicks: I think Konstanty will be the major danger to his place in the side, as the main reason that he was a top twenty pick, was his forward pressure game. While injuries prevented Konstanty from doing much last season, late on, I thought he was starting to show why our recruiters rated him. But since I thought Wicks played well last season, Konstanty will have to perform in the pre-season to claim his spot.

[Captain]

I'm of the view that Rowbottom would be one of the most under pressure in the team. Not because of poor form but purely because of the strong midfield depth we have.

Clearly Warner, Gulden, Mills, Parker and Adams would all be ahead of him. Then you have Sheldrick who I think is going to be a gun, Jordan who the coaches obviously must like and Heeney/Papley who can run through.

They all can't fit in the one team. Realistically it probably won't be too much of an issue as unlikely to have them all fit at once, but if they are fit, I think it comes down to Rowbottom v Sheldrick/Jordan. Would have him ahead of Jordan but would prefer Sheldrick in the team at all costs.

[707]

Ah, what a lovely problem to have.

VFL side should be very strong if the list is sound, a lot more depth than last year, quite a lot

[BRS328]

Captain
I wouldn’t be too quick to right Rowbottom off. But remember we do have two aging small defenders to replace in Cunningham and Lloyd over the not too distant future, and Rowy may well be suited to one of those roles.
I do get your point about an abundance of talented midfielders, and agree with your overall assessment

[i'm-uninformed2]

As a well known fan of Rowie, I’ll say this.

His grunt work is better than many appreciate, and not just his tackling. His stoppage clearances are first class, he’s probably the best ‘one percenter’ per player in our side, the coaches clearly love the role he plays and he’s utterly selfless, as well as an all round total hard arse. He’s also usually someone who uses the ball aware of his limitations and will deliver the right kick, as opposed to trying the Errol like lace out. Even his old nemesis on here The Bloods used to remark how he’d always find a spot up for Buddy.

Where I think there is a challenge is his centre clearance possessions are low compared to his work at stoppages. Whether that’s a function of the defensive task he’s given, or it’s not his natural skill set, not sure. Though I felt when he first played he was a bit better at bursting through contests and getting a release away. Either way, he will never be like Chad, but I’m sure he could do a bit more in there than he currently does.

I do think where he has another challenge is there’s not a lot of versatility to his game. He plays tight at the contest, and that’s that. He seemed to cover the ground a bit better when he first arrived and seemed to get back to some of that in the second half of both ‘22 and ‘23. So he’ll need to maintain that, as you’re not likely to play him at half forward, or as small defender (not sure he has the leg speed for that ).

For me, he is still easily best 22. You don’t come top three in the B&F two years in a row if you’re not. I think it was the Gold Coast game at the SCG in 2023 where he and Parker just went to work inside and at the contest, and bashed their terrific midfield into submission. They absolutely went body hunting. It was brutal, a joy to watch two hard heads at work, and a reminder of why Rowie is so valued. But of course there are things for him to keep working on.

But isn’t the debate about his place ‘maybe’ coming under some pressure a great sign of the depth we’re building. So exciting.