2nd Sydney team effect on the swans

[barry]

What are peoples views on a 2nd AFL team in Sydney based in Western Sydney. ?

I was sort of undecided about it until this year when a number of things have fallen into place.
For a start, we now have a strong relocation candidate in the bulldogs. We are also seeing the AFL grow in Sydney despite the swans poor form over the last few years. Prime time coverage, games in western sydney getting good crowds, and now some uneasy rumblings in the RL world (eg. Press articles trying to reinforce NRL's popularity over AFL when it should be a given).

Could a team work in Western Sydney, leaving the swans based back at the SCG.
Obviously the lessons learnt by the early swans, bears and roos in SYdney would need to be avoided. A competitive team from the start, based in Sydney from the start.
Unlike the early swans and bears, we have all the infrastructure in place already.

What would be the effect on the swans ?
The "swans" brand is AFL in this city, so I dont think we would loose sponsors. The new side may struggle, but no more than the dogs do at the moment. The Swans would then have 2 derby games which should pull good crowds after a couple of years, and can get out of the SA deal (which seems to be costing us last years profit). The greater profile for AFL, and footy every weekend would be good for supporters.

Regardless of how the new team fares off the field, I think a 2nd team in Sydney would actually improve the swans lot, much like WC and Adelaide have experienced.

[Beaussie]

Would love to see a second Sydney AFL team based in Western Sydney. It is a real shame that the popularity of AFL rises and falls according to the Swans form. I guess that is the problem of the AFL and the Swans being seen as one in NSW.

I definately think two teams could work and the blockbuster local derbies would no doubt provide a fantastic atmosphere with additional opportunities to showcase and further develop the game. One would hope that both teams would be succesfull, if one was in a form slump hopefully the other could be winning. AFL in Sydney every week would most definately keep interest high particularly, if both were successful.

The Western Sydney Bulldogs has a nice ring to it don't you think. Perhaps a joint venture with the Canterbury Bulldogs who could share the venue and leagues club facilities (pretty much like their deal with the West Syd. Razorbacks). It would however probably hurt the Swans if such a deal was struck though as Canterbury has the biggest pokie profits in the state and the Swans still don't have a club house with pokie profits.

From memory Canterbury were interested in the Kangaroos with home games at the Oasis Stadium in Liverpool. Maybe such a deal with the Western Bulldogs would provide the impetus to restart construction of the stadium and leagues club at Liverpool.

I'm sure some of my fellow Swans supporters will say it wont work for at least 15-20 years but does anyone seriously think the Western Bulldogs will still be in Melbourne in 15-20 years. Relocation to a new rapid growth market seem a better option than the team fold altogether.

[penga]

i say go for a 14 team comp, with no preseason comp and play each team twice, once at home, once away

[Bart]

Re: 2nd Sydney team effect on the swans

Originally posted by barry
and now some uneasy rumblings in the RL world (eg. Press articles trying to reinforce NRL's popularity over AFL when it should be a given).

Very interesting you should mention that.

Did any see Roy Master's crappy article in the SMH last Monday moring where he was gloating about the record TV audinence for RL the previous day, and that in Sydney it doubled the AFL.

Well Roy, that is a pretty good performance by the AFL consdiering IT WAS ON AT 1 O'C ON MOTHER'S DAY YOU FOOL, COMPARED TO 4 O'C FOR THE LEAGUE.

Smacks of desparation for NRL after the Swannies beat the Lions.

I hope we get a good crowd this Sunday. Forecast is fine.

[robbieando]

I don' think the Sydney market can support another team at this point in time. There is nothing to suggest that Western Sydney is even willing to support AFL let alone a full time team. There is not a growing need for a second team, if there was then the push would be noticable.

In any case if this went ahead, do you really think the Bulldogs could survive short term in Sydney without a huge amount of AFL assistance?? Of course not. Members and sponsors wouldn't be huge to start with because people would go with the tried and trusted Sydney team. Add to the fact you'll find the Bulldogs Melbourne membership would drop by around half and a few sponsors they already have would also leave. I think we must wait until the time is right not another Swans like hit and hope mission.

[Beaussie]

Originally posted by robbieando
I don' think the Sydney market can support another team at this point in time. There is nothing to suggest that Western Sydney is even willing to support AFL let alone a full time team. There is not a growing need for a second team, if there was then the push would be noticable.


Quoted from the March edition of Swans news:

The games at Telstra Stadium are consistent with the long term approach but given the response to them last year, their future potential is exciting from an AFL perspective.

The first match between the Swans and Essendon attracted more than 54,000 people the largest crowd to watch any AFL match outside of Victoria. Of that number, about 18,000 people attended an AFL game for the first time with a large percentage of those from the Greater West of Sydney.

On average some 44,000 people attended the three games last year with ticket purchases weighted heavily towards people living in the Greater West of Sydney more heavily than for the matches at the SCG.

In terms of attracting a new audience and people from the Greater West, the games were an unqualified success.



In any case if this went ahead, do you really think the Bulldogs could survive short term in Sydney without a huge amount of AFL assistance?? Of course not. Members and sponsors wouldn't be huge to start with because people would go with the tried and trusted Sydney team. Add to the fact you'll find the Bulldogs Melbourne membership would drop by around half and a few sponsors they already have would also leave. I think we must wait until the time is right not another Swans like hit and hope mission.

Of course a new team would need AFL support and perhaps as mentioned before Canterbury leagues in the short term. I never suggested this would not be the case. Financial support is however already assisting the likes of the Western Bulldogs, Kangaroos etc who clearly can't cut it in dwindling Melbourne market. Give it a go is all I'm saying. The potential for growth and survival, albeit relocated surely demands it. Time will tell i guess.

[bricon]

Originally posted by Beaussie
The potential for growth and survival, albeit relocated surely demands it.

And another catastrophic failure (like the Kangaroos Sydney experiment) would set the cause of a second Sydney side back by a generation.

[Beaussie]

Originally posted by bricon
And another catastrophic failure (like the Kangaroos Sydney experiment) would set the cause of a second Sydney side back by a generation.

Difference is the Kangaroos were a fly in fly out experiment, in an attempt to broaden their national appeal. They never had any intentions of becoming Sydney's second team and the Sydney public realised this. The Kangaroos did many things wrong however, had they demonstrated a committment to relocating and becoming the Western Sydney Kangaroos, I think their Sydney venture may have been better received by the Sydney public.

[footyhead]

The problem with the Roos Sydney experiment was that they wern't serious. One comentator in the Sydney press said at the time that Syd could potentially get behind the Roos if they were serious to the point of having a mid week training session up here for their syd "home games", but instead they just flew in and out like the interstate team they were and are.
The only way that AFL will really grow in western Sydney is with a second Sydney team fully backed with a 20 to 30 year plan. Salery cap support and support with the recruitment of local talent. And hopfully the in put of some high profile western Sydney buisness people.
The Western sydeny Bulldogs would definatley struggle, but within 8-10 years we could start to expect some pretty feirce cross town rivalry, and that is what has realy grown AFL in every market that it has been in since it's inception. In a nut shell footy is about clanisim.
AFL has the majick to incite clanisim more than any other sport because of it's great spectacle and atmosphere. Without a second Sydney team, the swans miss out on this most compelling aspect of the game. IE a true cross town rival !
I think the time is right. As long as there is a complete commitment for both teams(syd and w.sydeny) in all the areas I have mentioned, for as long as it takes! (minimun 20 years).
It would hurt the swans a little in the short term, But in the medium term 5-8 years it would be a boon in terms of extra exposure , more passion , realife from the huge weight of expectation placed on the swans by the sydney press and supporters (ie being the only syd team ).
Plus as I said nothing grows afl like a true rivalry. If we really had one in the western suberbs, I would imagine that we could sign another 2,ooo members just on the basis of the spectacle.
Yes now is the time, otherwise the struggling dogs will just keep getting more and more in debt without any hope for the future. This continually bog down the AFL . Also if the swans don't win a flag in the next 5 years, the stakes become much higher for the Swans and for a second team comming here after.
It Should be done , it should be done right, it should be done now.

[Charlie]

Well... I'm going to be selfish, and say that I don't want a second team in Sydney. Why would I want to encourage further competition for the Swans' marketplace? Doesn't make much business sense to me...

[footyhead]

Well... I'm going to be selfish, and say that I don't want a second team in Sydney. Why would I want to encourage further competition for the Swans' marketplace? Doesn't make much business sense to me...

Because in the medium to long term it would actually grow the swans faster than they are now capable of growing. Buisiness academics have known for a long time that the right amount of competition is the perfect catalyst for growth in most markets. Especially AFL and a market the size Sydney.
Both teams would prosper, Medium to long term.

[Charlie]

Hang on. AFL is only one type of product available in the Sydney sports market.

In much the same way that McDonald's competes with KFC, as a fast food place, but also competes with bakeries, as food retailers, AFL clubs compete not only with itself (at least, in Vic, SA and WA) but also with other sports. Sydney is in a highly competitive market already, against 9 NRL clubs, 1 Super12 club, I think 4 or 5 NSL clubs, 2 NBL clubs, 2 Netball clubs and various other niche holders.

Even then, in the context of entertainment, you're competing with countless others, from cinemas to rock concerts. There is plenty of competition already without welcoming another producer of the same product.

[footyhead]

Originally posted by Charlie
Hang on. AFL is only one type of product available in the Sydney sports market.

In much the same way that McDonald's competes with KFC, as a fast food place, but also competes with bakeries, as food retailers, AFL clubs compete not only with itself (at least, in Vic, SA and WA) but also with other sports. Sydney is in a highly competitive market already, against 9 NRL clubs, 1 Super12 club, I think 4 or 5 NSL clubs, 2 NBL clubs, 2 Netball clubs and various other niche holders.

Even then, in the context of entertainment, you're competing with countless others, from cinemas to rock concerts. There is plenty of competition already without welcoming another producer of the same product.

Yeah but Charlie, Aussie rules is a team sport, so comparing the market with Macdonalds and KFC is redundant, because you don't get the bonus of a cross town rivalry by eating both these products at once and watching the effects of them fighting it out in your stomach to see who wins ! .
A lot of people have an interest in the Swans up here Charlie, but they do not have a context for their support. That is why More than One team in Sydney would be a benifit to the Swans.
It has been irrafutably proved that cross town rivalries work for All the AFL football clubs involved in every city that they have been implemented in. This Includes Melbourne (at the inception), Adelaide, and Perth.As well as other cities over seas and other competitions.

[Charlie]

I'm sorry... but I don't see how having ONE game against local opposition is going to help, when in all likelihood that opposition is going to take alot of our members.

There is no way in which the Swans could benefit from another team in Sydney. People seem to forget, when looking at the SA and WA examples, that Adelaide and West Coast had either won the flag the year before, or won the next two when the new clubs entered!!! That's why they had immediate financial success, not as a result of having cross-town competition.

[Steve]

It would be a disaster for everyone involved.

Reconsider it in 20 years.