AFL respect in Sydney

[Bear]

Originally posted by neored


Looking at your crowd figures this year more left than stayed. I remember the ground was packed 7 years ago. Now unless Sydneys supporters have a higher mortality rate then Victorian clubs, then this years figures are a damning indictment on some of your supporters.

My own personal view has been that when a side changes its name , its location, alters its uniform,its not the same club. Though the South Melbourne spirit is still alive, theres no doubt that the current version is more Sydney than South Melbourne.

"if" the league had gone broke (which it wouldn't have) then it would of been due to the incompetence of those in charge. In any case Ross Oakleigh is widely acknowledged as being an alarmist.

The huge TV deal was due not to interstate clubs but the over inflated broadcasting market that was present at that time. European soccer, NBA , NFL all experienced the same upsurge. Since then the bubble has burst and there will be nothing like that type of money floating around. The AFL was lucky.

The Johnny come latelies merely top up what is already there. Without the hardcore supporters there would be no clubs, no AFL, and no Johnny come latelies. Supporters , especially Victorian supporters are the life blood of the competition. Dont forget that.

I've never denied the fact that the competition is all the better because of the interstate presence. But let me repeat that without a healthy Victorian competition then the AFL is doomed.

Mate let me put this simply. Victorian produces the talent, its got the supporter base, the majority of clubs come from Victoria. The best 2 stadiums are in Victoria. The history and tradition are in Victoria, the new hall of fame will be in Victoria.

How is it that you cant see how very important Victoria is? Of course Victoria should be given special attention. Without the heart the rest of the body is utterly useless.

JUDAS [/B]

Quite seriously though, when you do some homework you'll realise how silly you sound! Not even worth responding point-by-silly-point to an ostrich.

From a bankrupt, backyard competition 1981 to hundred million dollar TV rights... gee, just as well we have Victorian sides in there!! Makes me so proud

And enjoy your years in the wilderness Dons... i guess you'll be visiting other sides' sites a bit more over the next decade.

Oh and finally too bad Collingwood reversed their colours on their jumper a couple of years ago... and Essendon now plays at the Telstra Dome... shame to see the death of Victorian clubs.

[robbieando]

Originally posted by neored
I've never claimed that interstate clubs were stealing from Victorian clubs, I was refuting an assertion that Victorian clubs were stealing from interstate clubs.

So why did you say the Swans and the Lions were getting a good deal??

In the case of merchandising , theres no doubt that West Coast , Adelaide and to a lesser extent Pt. Adelaide generate substantial merchandising sales. But use some logic, Essendon generated $2.2 million in merchandising last year, using Essendon as measuring stick, and calculating on a sliding scale you get a rough idea of overall sales. Taking into account the fact that there are more Victorian clubs than interstate clubs, I fail to see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that Victorian and interstate merchandising is on even par. I would say that its a 60-40 share.

The 6 interstate clubs raise the same as the top 6 Victorian clubs is what I'm saying, the other 4 Victoria are far behind.

But let me point out , It wasn't our president who came out a few weeks ago , crying poor , claiming that our revenue from endorsements had dropped by $3 million was it?

It was because of a lack of lower level sponsors, not the big name sponsors. Again our QBE deal is bigger than your deal with 3 and our deal with Puma is bigger as well. We are suffering a downturn in local sponsor who have decided to spend their money on the Rugby World Cup.

Looking at your crowd figures this year more left than stayed. I remember the ground was packed 7 years ago. Now unless Sydneys supporters have a higher mortality rate then Victorian clubs, then this years figures are a damning indictment on some of your supporters.

Essendon average crowd figure have fallen each year since 1999, but you don't see me calling them names.

p't give a rats toss what the AFL chooses to recognise. For example take a look at this years History of AFL encyclopedia, they completely omitted any mention of State Of Origin. Poof, Gone. The AFL is very selective in what it chooses to recognise.

Sure, but again the reasons the AFL left out the SOO info was because it is no longer played for and info can be found in other issues. Also

Secondly I'll admit that I was harsh in my previous post. Obviously there are supporters out there who have crossed over and still regard Sydney as South Melbourne. My own personal view has been that when a side changes its name , its location, alters its uniform,its not the same club. Though the South Melbourne spirit is still alive, theres no doubt that the current version is more Sydney than South Melbourne.

I'm a born and bred Swan, there is no difference except we play in a different state. If Essendon moved to Woop Woop would it be a different team?? Of course not. Hell, Essendon don't even play in its own suburb anymore.

"if" the league had gone broke (which it wouldn't have) then it would of been due to the incompetence of those in charge. In any case Ross Oakleigh is widely acknowledged as being an alarmist.

So what if he is, the facts are on the table, that since then 2 clubs from Victoria are no longer there. 2 are close to death and at least 3 others suffer from year to year money problems. If the league hadn't of gone national when it did, it would of slowly fallen away, most likely wouldn't of died but would of gone close. The facts are the league is only as big as it is now because of the growth of the league outside Victoria.

The huge TV deal was due not to interstate clubs but the over inflated broadcasting market that was present at that time. European soccer, NBA , NFL all experienced the same upsurge. Since then the bubble has burst and there will be nothing like that type of money floating around. The AFL was lucky.

That is the biggest load of bull**** I have ever heard, the current deal had nothing to do with other deals worldwide. The TV deals have gotten bigger since the league went national.

Johnny come latelies merely top up what is already there. Without the hardcore supporters there would be no clubs, no AFL, and no Johnny come latelies. Supporters , especially Victorian supporters are the life blood of the competition. Dont forget that.

Of course you need hardcore support but hardcore support alone won't be enough. Also are you saying that to be a hardcore supporter you have to follow a Victorian Club and come from Victoria??? What bull****, next you'll tell me that Port Adelaide fans are all bandwagon jumpers.

What history book have you read that makes such a claim? The game wasn't created by one man or two it evolved. The first "game" between Scots College and Xavier occured 150 years ago, without any real rules. Then on 8th May 1866 4 clubs met at Freemasons Hotel to draw up 12 common rules.

So can you tell me who Wills and Harrison are then?????? And you'll find that one of these men was born and raised in NSW.

[b]I've never denied the fact that the competition is all the better because of the interstate presence. But let me repeat that without a healthy Victorian competition then the AFL is doomed.[b]

and without the interstate clubs the AFL is doomed, as it can't go back to being a suburbian league once again.

Mate let me put this simply. Victorian produces the talent, its got the supporter base, the majority of clubs come from Victoria. The best 2 stadiums are in Victoria. The history and tradition are in Victoria, the new hall of fame will be in Victoria.

That comes from having a blinked view of things, how long do you think Victoria will have over half the league. The best 2 stadiums, don't make me laugh, Telstra Stadium ****s all over the Dome. History and Tradition excists everywhere, not just Victoria

I doubt that can be any more clubs. Where?

Ever heard the term relotate. 2 Victorian clubs will do so in the next 20 years to where well I place my bets on Tasmania and Canberra.

[Charlie]

Essendon has played in Essendon, East Melbourne, Jolimont and now West Melbourne. Is it a different club? No. Hawthorn has played in Hawthorn, Carlton, Mulgrave and Jolimont. When Fitzroy was dying, they played in Footscray and trained in Coburg. In an era in which Melbourne hosts Brisbane in Brisbane, when St Kilda has played more games in Tasmania than in St Kilda in the past 37 years... location hasn't got a lot to do with anything.

The jumper? The Saints play some away games in lemon. The Kangaroos have worn orange, the Old, dark, navy blues have worn baby blue. Fitzroy were once called the Maroons for a reason, yet their final game as a single entity was in red, blue and yellow.

The name? If that takes away your identity, then who are the Western Bulldogs? Who are the Kangaroos? What about nicknames? There was a time when you could watch the Same Olds versus the Pivotonians, or the Wasps against the Bloods. What about the Mayblooms, the Tricolours, the Shinboners? Ever heard of a team called University?

A lot has changed about our game. In 1897 there were 8 teams, playing a 14 round season. At the end, the best four teams played a round robin series to determine the premier. Back then, you had your choice of the punt, the drop kick or the place kick... and a few years later Collingwood went to Tasmania, where they added the stab kick to the VFL's repertoire. A Melbourne player named Fred McGinis was named "Champion of the Colony" for his excellent performance in that season.

Now, we have 16 teams. We play 22 games. 8 teams play a somewhat complicated finals series. You use the drop punt, perhaps the banana, and if you're not afraid of the coach, you might be tempted to try a torpedo. The Brownlow Medal is a gala event attended by over a thousand people, watched by hundreds of thousands more live on TV.

A lot certainly changes in footy. It happens every year. But at the same time, a lot stays the same. One thing that stays the same is a club's identity, regardless of what jumper they wear, where they play, what they call themselves. Sydney fans know that Bob Skilton won 3 Brownlows for the club. Many know that the club used to play at the Lake Oval. Some don't. But we all know that one thing that hasn't changed, is that our club is still the same club, regardless.

[Dave]

Originally posted by neored


Mate let me put this simply. Victorian produces the talent

[/B]

Well you might as well dump McVeigh then.

By the way, does that mean that Paul Kelly and Wayne Carey never had talent or that Wagga Wagga is in Victoria?

Does it also mean that you don't rate Adam Goodes?

I think someone's a bit confused!!!!!

Don't worry though. Just go off and "do the Sheedy" and I'm sure you'll find peace with yourself

[NMWBloods]

As far as "Victoria produces the talent" I think he's also forgotten about flags to West Coast and Adelaide, plus all the South Australians in Carlton's premiership teams.

[jixygirl]

Well, neored, you must now be regretting ever arguing about how the AUSTRALIAN Football League is still relying on the Victorian teams on a SYDNEY swans fan messageboard. You have no idea how important this club is to the AFL and to its fans everywhere so go and talk about your beloved Essendon and Victroian teams somewhere else. Also, your comment about the South Melbourne spirit being dead particularly angered me, due to the fact that my whole family barracks for Sydney because unlike supporters that only care about where the team is, we still followed the Swans after 1981. We are as passionate and as big a supporter as any supporter of a Victorian team.

[liz]

Or we could look at recent Brownlow medalists, say the last 10 years or so...

1993 Wanganeen - SA
1994 Williams - Vic
1995 Kelly - NSW
1996 Voss - Q, Hird - ACT
1997/8 Harvey - Vic
1999 Crawford - NSW
2000 Woewodin - WA
2001 Akermanis - Q
2002 Black - WA

So out of the last 10 medalists, just 2 have been Victorians.

[Jon]

I've just been watching this thread with growing amazement. I have nothing to add. Just wanted to congratulate EVERYBODY for their passionate and lucid responses to this garbage.

(I can't believe the way Neored just keeps getting up off the mat...doesn't he see this fight is over? Completely and utterly OVER!?)

[jixygirl]

You'd think that after all the complaints that neored has received, they would never come back ever again, but noooooooooo. All the responses just prove yet again that Sydney is a very passionate side which is VERY proud of its history.

[neored]

Originally posted by robbieando
[So why did you say the Swans and the Lions were getting a good deal??

You are getting a good deal, when you consider your share of the dividend in proportion to the amount of merchandise you generate. I might add also a number of smaller Victorian clubs are also getting a good deal.

The 6 interstate clubs raise the same as the top 6 Victorian clubs is what I'm saying, the other 4 Victoria are far behind.

Look who's being selective. There are 16 clubs in which the pool is added into , so the Victorian contribution is greater.

It was because of a lack of lower level sponsors, not the big name sponsors. Again our QBE deal is bigger than your deal with 3 and our deal with Puma is bigger as well. We are suffering a downturn in local sponsor who have decided to spend their money on the Rugby World Cup.

Sorry but I have very little sympathy for your situation. Australia has been bidding for the World Cup for around 2 years, thats ample amount of time to assess the situation and make adjustments. The fact that you have not is due to the ineptness of your president and CEO. Perhaps if he spent less time giving people the bird he would have been able to soften the blow.

This will be the 2nd year that you will announce another substantial loss, and theres no doubt in the next 2 - 3 years the after effects of the WC will be felt. Lets just see if you can get your house in order.

Isn't it funny though that although your in a bit of a mess, there a people in this forum urging the club to throw everything at trying to get Lenny Hayes. Who are you expecting to subsidise such a deal?

Essendon average crowd figure have fallen each year since 1999, but you don't see me calling them names.

The fact that you even seek to compare the 2 situations is ludicrous. Were talking about a decline of around 6 - 10 % in our case during a very bad year. This has been a great year for you and yet you're only able to attract around 21,000 to most of your games. Thats a drop of 40 - 50 % from 1996. And lets not mention the state of your crowds before 1996 shall we..

Sure, but again the reasons the AFL left out the SOO info was because it is no longer played for and info can be found in other issues.

So what it still occured, its still part of the history and certainly deserving a few lines. The fact is though that they are spineless, they would never of removed State of Origin in the first place if Whitten was still alive. They waited till he died to rip the heart out.

Also I'm a born and bred Swan, there is no difference except we play in a different state. If Essendon moved to Woop Woop would it be a different team?? Of course not. Hell, Essendon don't even play in its own suburb anymore.

You play in a different state, under a different name with a different uniform. If Essendon moved to Canberra called itself the Canberra Bombers, played at Manuka and put a silhouette of parliament house on its sash then its stops being the club that I supported. It becomes something else. And there's a difference b/w shifting a few suburbs and leaving the city in which you were formed.

So what if he is, the facts are on the table, that since then 2 clubs from Victoria are no longer there. 2 are close to death and at least 3 others suffer from year to year money problems. If the league hadn't of gone national when it did, it would of slowly fallen away, most likely wouldn't of died but would of gone close. The facts are the league is only as big as it is now because of the growth of the league outside Victoria.

All the more reason for the AFL to give Victoria special attention. Let me repeat that I've never denied that interstate clubs have made the competition better. But you didn't save the league, and without a strong foundation you cant build a house.

That is the biggest load of bull**** I have ever heard, the current deal had nothing to do with other deals worldwide. The TV deals have gotten bigger since the league went national.

You're crazy, every major international trend affects Australia. Sharemarkets, economic conditions of other countries. FOX, is part of News Limited, news Limited is an international company. News Limited also have rights to international sports. FOX is closely aligned to PBL which owns the Nine Network. Its all about networking

How do you think they came up with the figure of $85 million and contra? They use other sports as a measuring stick to judge the environment. They just dont pick a figure out of thin air.

Of course you need hardcore support but hardcore support alone won't be enough. Also are you saying that to be a hardcore supporter you have to follow a Victorian Club and come from Victoria??? What bull****, next you'll tell me that Port Adelaide fans are all bandwagon jumpers.

Geez , if you actually pay attention you'll actually spare yourself some typing. Of course hardcore support is never enough , the more support the better.

BUT... bandwagon support fluctuates depending on how newer clubs are performing. The AFL can always depend on the loyal supporter to turn up. Apart from West Coast and Adelaide(and a few Sydney and fitroy fans) , most of the hardcore support is in Victoria. Because tradition and history breed loyalty.

AS for P.Adelaide... as I've said their supporters are tight arses.

So can you tell me who Wills and Harrison are then?????? And you'll find that one of these men was born and raised in NSW.

I wouldn't be questioning me on the history of the AFL. Thomas Wentworth Wills didn't invent the game, neither did " Coldy" Harrison. They came up with some general rules which applied when Xavier played Scots. Wentworth had a number of associates like Harrison who helped him along. If thats what you call inventing the game, then a few Scots can also possibly take the credit.

But the fact is the game wasn't anything like todays. The score ended one all. The game has evolved over many years, changes made. No one or two people can possibly take credit. The game has however been nurtured by 1 state throughout its history.

and without the interstate clubs the AFL is doomed, as it can't go back to being a suburbian league once again.

Without the interstate clubs the game wouldn't be anywhere near as greate. True.

But without Victoria the game as a whole would not exist.

That comes from having a blinked view of things, how long do you think Victoria will have over half the league. The best 2 stadiums, don't make me laugh, Telstra Stadium ****s all over the Dome. History and Tradition excists everywhere, not just Victoria

Lets compare apples to apples shall we. Telstra Dome isn't Victorias primary ground. MCG is , and there's no doubt that its the greatest stadium in Australia.

Telstra Dome is an excellent stadium for watching the game, it gives the spectators the best view of any ground. Plus the roof. Its just unfortunate that people can get in sometimes, and the players dont like the turf. If they fix those two things then it will be a great spectators stadium.

Footy tradition is uniquely Victorian. Society and sport are intertwined in this State. I you were a true Victorian then you'd know that.

Ever heard the term relotate. 2 Victorian clubs will do so in the next 20 years to where well I place my bets on Tasmania and Canberra.

Rubbish. Canberra cant support a team. You're not going to cover expenditure by having 15 - 20K turn up each week to watch you. There aren't enough people for a decent membership base. And theres very little corporate support.

Tasmania has the support but 0 % infastructure. There's very little corporate existence. You just cant drag a 20 mil enterprise and shift it and live off scraps. You're dreaming.

If teams are going to relocate then it will be in around 40 -50 years time to Sydney or Brisbane. And thats supposing that the Swans and Lions still exist.

Otherwise teams in Victoria will disappear.

[neored]

Originally posted by lizz
Or we could look at recent Brownlow medalists, say the last 10 years or so...

1993 Wanganeen - SA
1994 Williams - Vic
1995 Kelly - NSW
1996 Voss - Q, Hird - ACT
1997/8 Harvey - Vic
1999 Crawford - NSW
2000 Woewodin - WA
2001 Akermanis - Q
2002 Black - WA

So out of the last 10 medalists, just 2 have been Victorians.

What precisely is your point? There are more than 1 player per club, and the overwhelming majority of players in the system are Victorian.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by neored
What precisely is your point? There are more than 1 player per club, and the overwhelming majority of players in the system are Victorian.

This was, I think, in response to your view that "Victoria produces the talent", whereas that is patently not true.

[neored]

Originally posted by Dave
Well you might as well dump McVeigh then.

By the way, does that mean that Paul Kelly and Wayne Carey never had talent or that Wagga Wagga is in Victoria?

Does it also mean that you don't rate Adam Goodes?

I think someone's a bit confused!!!!!

Don't worry though. Just go off and "do the Sheedy" and I'm sure you'll find peace with yourself

You're not taking anything are you?


Adam Goodes was originally from Victoria.

What a great human being Carey has turned out to be?

Twit

[neored]

Originally posted by Dave
Well you might as well dump McVeigh then.

By the way, does that mean that Paul Kelly and Wayne Carey never had talent or that Wagga Wagga is in Victoria?

Does it also mean that you don't rate Adam Goodes?

I think someone's a bit confused!!!!!

Don't worry though. Just go off and "do the Sheedy" and I'm sure you'll find peace with yourself

You're not taking anything are you?

Adam Goodes is from Victoria.

What a great human being Carey has turned out to be!!! I wouldn't be too proud of him if i was you.

Twit

[NMWBloods]

Adam Goodes is from Victoria.

What a great human being Carey has turned out to be!!! I wouldn't be too proud of him if i was you.

Twit

Goodes is actually from Adelaide.

Who cares what sort of human being Carey is - we are talking football here and he is generally acknowledged as one of the best of the modern era.

So perhaps before being rude, your arguments should be cogent!