Another smokescreen from Roos

[liz]

Originally posted by hemsleys
There was a small article in Yesterdays HS, where Roos was saying we, if we can't find a large fullback type internally they will be recruiting one at the end of the season. Or words similar to that.

He actually said the same thing well before the season even began

[sharp9]

But who would we recruit???? The only decent KP backs in the comp are Fletcher, Michael, Leppitsch (too old) Scarlett, Cornes, Maguire, Penny, Polak.......as if they would be traded.

That's it.

We could try getting Playfair or Staker back to N.S.W (fat chance again) but even then we would have to move them down back from their preferred positions.

Powell, James, LRT, Davis + 2 years in the gym, is (unfortunately) our best option (also Rogers, Hunt + 2 years of skill training)

I'm just glad we didn't get R. Hall.......M. Bolton or A. McPhee would have been very handy, though.

[Bear]

Re: Re: Another smokescreen from Roos

Originally posted by taurus
I agree with most of your view except on Schauble. I think we are a lot weaker without him. Yes, I know that we have won without him for most of this season, however, he adds solid physical and leading presence to our backline. He may not be the flashest FB, but adds depth and stability IMO.

I don't think James would be a viable FB due to his lack of size. C. Bolton IMO has not improved since last year.

Yes I agree we need Scaubs back to give us more options, but he wouldn't have changed the result on Sunday IMO. A better style of play could have.

I also think you may be under-rating Heath's strength as he did particularly well in the first 4-5 weeks when playing body-on-body.


... and no we shouldn't even be considering replacing Roos Go Swannies, but he is not beyond critisism.

[Alec]

I think we might be underestimating the importance of Schaubs a bit. He's had most of the big jobs since Dunkley's exit, and he usually has found a way to turn a losing proposition into at least a draw on the day.

Regardless, it's true that the big forwards have begun to find a way to win the ball at the SCG, though. There was a time when you could bet the Roccas, Gherig, Nietz, Richo et al would be non-contributors - finding the shallow pockets and the shorter half-foward area a bit hard to adjust to.

Not anymore. It's almost always been a key forward (or a tall defender of the Leppitsch/Fletcher variety pushing up the ground) that have begun to turn matches up here.

Premiership sides have a key, large defender. Unfortuntely, it's just a fact.

Roos isn't blowing a smokescreen, he's just pinpointing an area of concern. And I'd have thought that was surely his job?

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Alec
Premiership sides have a key, large defender. Unfortuntely, it's just a fact.

It's hardly a fact - Adelaide won two premierships without one.

Nigel Smart (187, 88) and Ben Hart (188, 85) were their key defenders.

Carlton won 1995 with Silvagni as their full back - hardly a large guy (I played basketball against him last year so I know definitely how big he is).

Dustin Fletcher might be tall, but he's not huge (197, 92) and Essendon have won a couple of premierships with him.

Certainly it helps a lot, but it's not a necessary ingredient.

[TheHood]

Originally posted by lizz
Hey Dan. Do you remember our conversation a couple of weeks ago?

Is this one of those ones where you reminded me that Rocket started off a pussy cat and ended up in 1997 as a grumpy bloke with standards way too high?

[taurus]

Re: Re: Re: Another smokescreen from Roos

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bear

I also think you may be under-rating Heath's strength as he did particularly well in the first 4-5 weeks when playing body-on-body.


Perhaps I am. We will assess Heath's potential and viability as the season progress. For the record I do like him as a defender, just not sure whether FB is the best for him.

[dimelb]

We don't need a gorilla, we already have one, name of Schauble. On results he is one of the better FBs in the comp. It will be interesting to have him back in tandem with James, who is big enough to inconvenience Richo, and no-one is going to shut Richo down completely without provoking him into a hissy fit. What we do need is a production line of tall defenders/forwards/spare time ruckmen as someone else said - LRT, Powell etc. On the whole, they seem to be progressing OK, always allowing for the extra time they need.

[Alec]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
It's hardly a fact - Adelaide won two premierships without one.

Nigel Smart (187, 88) and Ben Hart (188, 85) were their key defenders.

Carlton won 1995 with Silvagni as their full back - hardly a large guy (I played basketball against him last year so I know definitely how big he is).

Dustin Fletcher might be tall, but he's not huge (197, 92) and Essendon have won a couple of premierships with him.

Certainly it helps a lot, but it's not a necessary ingredient.

I know what you're saying. I guess it depends on how you define "big" really. I wasn't talking so much size as strength.
It's true that you can get away without an enforcer up back, but you just wouldn't want to have to.

Our backline is pretty tough. But they have to work hard to overcome a lot of uneven matchups every other game.

All those players you mentioned are strong and punch(ed) above their weight.

Fletcher isn't exactly a minnow in the physical stakes...but I wouldn't have cast him as their most important defender in 2000. Essendon's backline was always a Wellman, Wallis knuckle- fest in those days. Just ask all those Melb players who still need to watch a video to know what happened in that year's final.

Smart and Hart were surely the first two defenders the Crows would have picked each week, but they also had Goodwin, Pittman and Rehn helping out across the half back line...so they weren't exactly a tiny squad.

Point taken though. You're right that it can be done.

The question is: can it be more easily done? and I'm not so sure about that. Just in the last decade the results show a trend.

Bris: 3 Premierships - Gorilla killers all over their backline

Nth Mel: 2 Premierships - Martyn a professional Zero Stat man

Essendon: 1 Premiership - at least 3 quality, tall(ish) defenders able to beat (not just play on) any forward in footy.

West Coast: 2 Premierships - Jackovic, McIntosh, McKenna etc

It's possible the Swans might find a way to a flag without any structural change up back. But all i think Roos is saying with his comments is that, as a backman himself, he knows the true value of a little muscle and height around the goal square.

[liz]

Originally posted by Alec

Point taken though. You're right that it can be done.

The question is: can it be more easily done? and I'm not so sure about that. Just in the last decade the results show a trend.

Problem is that recruiting a quality, ready-to-play FB is nigh on impossible. There are so few going around that if they are any good they will not be released by their existing clubs unless they really want out. And even then there will be lots of competition for them and they will cost a heap in terms of trade cost.

The Lions pulled off an absolute coup when they got Michael but that trade is one out of the bag. There haven't been that many other successful trades of mature key defenders.

Schaubs is probably one of the better ones.

The Wakelin boys both going in the drafts were definitely value.

Jury is still out on the Leigh Brown trade and the Roos don't seem sure whether he's a defender or not.

Jacobs will never be more than a third or fourth defender IMO. And the Hawks got stitched by Sheedy in that trade. Give me James and Bolton any day, thanks.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Alec
I know what you're saying. I guess it depends on how you define "big" really. I wasn't talking so much size as strength.

Ah yes - strength, decision making, are crucial, probably more so than actual size. Silvagni was good at both (as well as Graeco-Roman wrestling) and the Adelaide guys were also pretty good. They also had a good midfield, which helped their back men a lot.

It's true that you can get away without an enforcer up back, but you just wouldn't want to have to.

Our backline is pretty tough. But they have to work hard to overcome a lot of uneven matchups every other game.

For sure - it would be great if we had just one bigger guy, a Dunkley type or Mal Michael or something.

Smart and Hart were surely the first two defenders the Crows would have picked each week, but they also had Goodwin, Pittman and Rehn helping out across the half back line...so they weren't exactly a tiny squad.

I am amazed that Goodwin is only 183cm - a tiny tacker. I wonder if that's a type on the AFL site (how not surprising!!).

A ruckman to fall back and cover is useful, and something every team should do, and something I said would be necessary against both Melbourne and Richmond, and we were exposed because we didn't do it.

Point taken though. You're right that it can be done.

The question is: can it be more easily done? and I'm not so sure about that. Just in the last decade the results show a trend.

Bris: 3 Premierships - Gorilla killers all over their backline

Nth Mel: 2 Premierships - Martyn a professional Zero Stat man

Essendon: 1 Premiership - at least 3 quality, tall(ish) defenders able to beat (not just play on) any forward in footy.

West Coast: 2 Premierships - Jackovic, McIntosh, McKenna etc

It's possible the Swans might find a way to a flag without any structural change up back. But all i think Roos is saying with his comments is that, as a backman himself, he knows the true value of a little muscle and height around the goal square.

You're right. It is easier to win with a solid FB, but finding one is difficult. You never know though - look at Luke Penny who has blossomed with the Saints and he's only 193cm, 96kg.

[TheHood]

Originally posted by Alec
Fletcher isn't exactly a minnow in the physical stakes...but I wouldn't have cast him as their most important defender in 2000. Essendon's backline was always a Wellman, Wallis knuckle- fest in those days. Just ask all those Melb players who still need to watch a video to know what happened in that year's final.

Smart and Hart were surely the first two defenders the Crows would have picked each week, but they also had Goodwin, Pittman and Rehn helping out across the half back line...so they weren't exactly a tiny squad.

Point taken though. You're right that it can be done.

The question is: can it be more easily done? and I'm not so sure about that. Just in the last decade the results show a trend.

Bris: 3 Premierships - Gorilla killers all over their backline

Nth Mel: 2 Premierships - Martyn a professional Zero Stat man

Essendon: 1 Premiership - at least 3 quality, tall(ish) defenders able to beat (not just play on) any forward in footy.

West Coast: 2 Premierships - Jackovic, McIntosh, McKenna etc

It's possible the Swans might find a way to a flag without any structural change up back. But all i think Roos is saying with his comments is that, as a backman himself, he knows the true value of a little muscle and height around the goal square.

It's a bit of a 20/20 hindsight argument this one. I mean, the legends of these backmen are only made after a flag!

Going into their respective premiership seasons, were the experts saying that "without doubt, this team has the FB to win the flag this season"?

I know you're just trying to illustrate a possible trend but if we had a monster bigger than Andrew Dunkley in 1996, would it have been the difference?

I would like our backmen to build their own legends, be it heart or leap, pace or strength.

I too think we need a bigger FB only because I reckon there are still enough 6'5" 105 kilo FFs going around and it is dangerous and taxing to have a 6'2" 90 kilo backman minding him. I too want Schaubes back but even more than that, I want our midfield working as hard as last year.

[ScottH]

Dunkley was undoubtedly the best FB going around that year. It was not his direct opponent that won the game for them. (Tho, he did miss that punch on the ball that any other day he would have punched 50m).

And I don't think Martyn at the other end won the game for them, The delivery into Plugger was not great (Yes we still remember Kels Kick).

But hey, I wouldn't not complain if James bulked up over the pre-season.


Then again Lloyd bulked up, and has not been the outstanding forward that everyone thought he would. So it is not always a good thing.

[Bart]

Originally posted by hemsleys
But hey, I wouldn't not complain if James bulked up over the pre-season.

I still believe James will be our long term FB

[Go Swannies]

Without any dramatic changes in the team we just seemed to have more options last year. Remember how, as each of our players went down with injuries, others stepped up. I think the team will be well served when we have Schauble and James as options down the back. And I think Magic coming back may have more effect than we imagine. Last week a Tiger fan said to me that Richo back would free Ottens up - and see how that worked out. Magic back looks set to free Goodes up. Of course, if that makes a major difference to the flow of the Swans' game we'll have to wonder why it wasn't done earlier and another way found to plug the forward line?