Now, back to reality

[footyhead]

A few of us here at "redandwhite", have been saying that there are a few fundamentals missing in the Swans team.
I think that the culture of the club is still suspect.
Roos has recently said that the Swans have to try and make the finals every year. This only verifies the veiw that mediocrity is considered acceptable at the Swans.
It is not acceptable to think that the Swans are doing ok, when they make the finals year in year out.
A Flag is all that really counts. Until the team have this instilled in them IE: that ultimate premiership glory is everything, then the Swans of old will continually raise their ugly heads.
The AFL should be (and probably are ) prepared to support the Swans through good times and bad. This would allow the team to truly rebuild without the fear of a few years of lower level failure.
I believe that until the Swans take this sort of course, then they will not be able to achieve the necessary improvement that could bring them a premiership.
It is only a Flag that will truly elevate the Swans within Sydney culture. Just taking the money from fans easily appeased by mediocre success is a medium term view at best. Better to have 15000 really hard core supporters than the 25-35000 we have who misguidedly turn up thinking we are a shot when we obviously are not. How are we going to get the true determination and confidence into our players that's required ? Where will the 3 or four absolute champions come from if our team culture is saying that mediocrity is oK ???

[Charlie]

I'm going to start calling you Ned.

Reading your posts reminds me of the Jerilderie letter.

[footyhead]

Originally posted by Charlie
I'm going to start calling you Ned.

Reading your posts reminds me of the Jerilderie letter.

Well instead of being a smart arse why don't you have a crack at trying to explain the Swans abysmal record. Or at least respond to the thread constructively. I only post my feelings cos I care about what happens to the club.

[Charlie]

Ok.

During the 1950s, '60s and '70s, a demographic change occurred in the South Melbourne area. The Swans competed for recruits in their zone with Port Melbourne, one of the biggest VFA clubs in an era when the VFA was still a competitor to the VFL.

These two problems, naturally, fed off each other. When the demographic changes occurred, the old working class South Melbourne became less hospitable to the football culture and a working class club. The Swans were having a low period - something that all clubs have had - which got worse as it became harder and harder to find players. This in turn affected the club's finances, and by the seventies the club was stuffed.

The Swans missed out on key generational support as the largest generation in Australian history grew up watching Collingwood, Essendon and Melbourne winning premierships instead of us. That would hurt us 20 years later, when we could no longer compete with the bigger Melbourne clubs in a league that was slowly becoming professional.

So we moved to Sydney, but the necessary support from the league wasn't there. It was a time when Skase, Bond, Edelsten, Elliott et al were at their peak, and all of them had financial interests in football clubs. There was a focus on glitz and glamour, and an attempt to buy a premiership failed. Tom Hafey had a habit of beating his players half to death in pre-season training, and they crashed by the time they got to the finals. The money soon disappeared, and seven or eight years after moving north we were back in the same financial strife we always were.

The now-AFL has a lot to answer for the treatment of Sydney up until 1993. In my opinion, they shirked their responsibilities. They let us go broke, and only at the brink of disaster did they step in and do their bit. It's been a long road from there, with it's peaks and troughs and slow improvement. But we're getting there.

The modern situation has little, if anything, to do with the situation that has it's roots in the decline of the Foreign Legion seventy years ago. It's incidental. The modern situation has everything to do with being in an incredibly competitive competition where not everything goes right and not everything goes our way. It's about a lot more than the historical culture (it should be cultures, the club has had a few cultural revolutions along the way) you like to ramble about.

You go on and on about bottoming-out and rebuilding over a course of years... why waste the talent we've spent the last 10 years accumulating for a highly dubious and costly 'method' for success?

[liz]

Originally posted by Charlie

You go on and on about bottoming-out and rebuilding over a course of years... why waste the talent we've spent the last 10 years accumulating for a highly dubious and costly 'method' for success?

Not to mention, of course, that there is not one single example of a club who has won even one premiership by "bottoming-out and rebuilding over a course of years" unless you count Essendon, who usually "bottom-out" between 8th and 12th on the ladder and rebound after a year, in the meantime trading judiciously and maintaining a balance list of establised "stars" solid mid-age players and an injection of youth.

Until either Freo or the Saints win a premiership with essentially their current lists of players, it will be merely supposition that this approach works.

[robbieando]

Originally posted by liz
Not to mention, of course, that there is not one single example of a club who has won even one premiership by "bottoming-out and rebuilding over a course of years" unless you count Essendon, who usually "bottom-out" between 8th and 12th on the ladder and rebound after a year, in the meantime trading judiciously and maintaining a balance list of establised "stars" solid mid-age players and an injection of youth.

Until either Freo or the Saints win a premiership with essentially their current lists of players, it will be merely supposition that this approach works.

Here, bloody here. The way people go on about bottoming out (footyhead in partiular) you would think its the only way to win a premiership.

Look at the last decade or so and you'll find only Brisbane won the wooden spoon in the 5 years leading up to winning a premiership and even then that was between seasons where they made the finals in 97 and 99. What the got for finishing last in 98 was Des Headland at Number 1 in the National Draft and David Calthorpe at Number 1 in the Pre Season draft, both hardly had any impact in the rise and success of the Lions with only Headland playing in one flag before being traded. The main reasons the Lions have won three in a row are, Leigh Matthews, Andrew Ireland and some great drafting with their Zone selections between 1990 and 1996 which got them the bulk of their stars.

Look at Essendon in 93 and 2000 and you'll find bottoming out for them was one or two season out of the finals and great drafting with their later picks. The Kanga's won their premierships in the 90's on the back of a great coach, the greatest CHF of all time and their 1988 Under 19 Class. The Crows and the Eagle won two premierships each off the back of their zone selections when they joined the league and Carlton won the 95 Premiership with their great interstate picks ups of the 80's and having never won a wooden spoon up to that point. Even Collingwood in 1990 didn't bottom out and don't get me started on the Hawks side of the late 80's.

Bottoming out the way to go, don't make me laugh.

Footyhead, leave the real discussion to people who have some sort of idea of what they are talking about.

[Nico]

Charlie, we didn't have a decent coach for decades until Norm Smith was appointed.

The VFL heads had been to the USA and were hell bent on a national comp. They tried to oust Fitzroy but a bloke called Leon Weigard headed then off at the pass.

They then set the dogs onto South with all sorts of pressure and threats over a few years. They then virtually said go to Sydney or fold and trotted out very dodgy figures on the financial state of the club, with the help of the then administration.

Demographic changes etc. had little to do with it because as with all clubs supporters of all clubs were spread far and wide in the state. We got a heap of players from Port who were darn good. Bedford, Brice, Skilton, Frank Johnson, Goss brothers and a host of others. Port was more of breeding ground for us than opposition.

If anyone was responsible for lack of success it was the succesive admins and coaching appointments.

[NMWBloods]

The other thing about the VFA, is that the quality of player there on average was never as high as the VFL. I remember a few star VFA players coming up to VFL level and not making it, while a number of VFL players approaching retirement or not quite making it in the VFL, would drop back to the VFA and become leading players.

Administratively the VFA was always far superior to the VFL though!!

[Benevolent Ert]

Originally posted by robbieando
The main reasons the Lions have won three in a row are, Leigh Matthews, Andrew Ireland and some great drafting with their Zone selections between 1990 and 1996 which got them the bulk of their stars.

Actually Robbie - I'd throw in one more thing ahead of those - access to 8 extra ready made players with reasonable trade value in the merger with Fitzroy

The Bears had managed to build the nucleus of a side that were just starting to become a regular finals side, when they picked up 8 established senior players for nothing - admittedly only one remains, but the shrewd administration at Brisbane got good value trades for at least five of the others.

Don't forget - basically every other side vetoed the Fitzroy/Nth Melbourne merger for fear of creating a "super-team"

[Bart]

Re: Now, back to reality

Originally posted by footyhead
Better to have 15000 really hard core supporters than the 25-35000 we have who misguidedly turn up thinking we are a shot when we obviously are not.

Well if we're prepared to have support drop to 15,000, one less at 14,999 wouldn't be too noticeable. Brisbane is nice during the winter fookyhead, and has the culture that you are looking for.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Whilest I am in no way certain we need to "bottom out" in order to get to a premiership, I think footyhead may be in part correct.

Comments from some Swans officials suggest that they believe that the fanbase will evaporate and ticket sales plummet should the Swans fail to make the finals for a year or two.

This is a long way from the "be patient" "things may get worse before they improve" philosophy that was espoused by Paul Roos prior to the 2003 season.

I applaud what Paul Roos has achieved with this team, I believe the Swans have performed close to their maximum for two seasons now. I am also impressed that we have had so few players suspended ~ it suggests of a focussed team to me.

However some team selections this year seemed to reflect a lack of long term planning.

Schneider being rushed back into he team is one case ~ playing McGlone would have been more of an investment in the fututre that a totally unfit Schneider.

The use of Leo Barry and Craig Bolton in key defensive posts. I don't think either is a key position player and I would have liked to see Powell and James given a greater chance. James for example got splatted by Neitz (not on his lonesome there) and that was it for the year.

Similarly in the forward line we need another tall (Magic is very injury prone and even at his best isn't big enough for a key position).

Certainly they experimented heavily with Goodes both forward and back even after it became apparent to most here that he was suited to neither. Perhaps similar effort could have been put into Powell or James.

Similarly, playing McVeigh for only a few minutes a game particularly early in the year failed to give the kid much chance to shine.

In closing I believe we should be very pleased with the team's afforts and Roos' coaching. The year 2005 can be counted a success (especially considering the loss of Davis, Schneider, Saddington and Schauble).

The emegence of Bevan and Monty a great pluses!

However in terms of our success in the years 2006-2008, pehaps 2004 may be seem for lost opportunities?

[barry]

The Swans are stuck in no mans land if they cant rebuild through high draft picks.

The AFL needs to address this issue, or Sydney will always be fickle ground.

The simpiest option would be to abolish priority picks. Make finishing 10th (not to bad a season) worth 6th pick.

Next, guarantee Sydney financially during a rebuilding phase. But against this is our significant home ground advantage, and its actually hard to only win 4 games with that advantage in 11.

Finally, get a 2nd team into Sydney to carry the AFL brand while the other rebuilds.

[footyhead]

Firstly, Thank you Charlie for your effort with regard to my suggestion to you.
You have made a number of points that I agree with and some I was unaware of.
I understand the complexity of the bind that the Swans find themselves in, but the only way to win a premiership is to create a winning culture within a team where there has not been one before - no matter what the reason for that loosing culture.

Liz, I admire your usual astuteness, but might I remind you of the fact that Brisbane finished last in 1998 !
Also you seem to be insinuating that I think we need to finish last. I am not. All I am saying is that the Swans lack of Premiership glory, and the problems of existing in a "developing market" have created an obsession with making the finals at all cost. Maybe even at the cost of winning a premiership!
This obsession within the Swans, and their constant paranoia that they will loose market share if they bottom out, has created a situation whereby really good football
people (which P.Roos may yet prove himself to be), are so constrained within the club that they are not able to implement the changes required to achieve what will ultimately win over the Sydney market, as well as restore the pride of the club!

I am including a post here from bigfooty as to the process undertaken by L.Mathews at the inception of his rein at the lions.
Does anyone really think that this sort of thing would be allowed to happen at the Swans with their current environment and culture ?
Well I am arguing that unless this happens, and unless the Swans allow themselves to really rebuild and change, no matter where they finish during the course of that process, then they will not become a good enough team to win a flag, and they will probably slowly lose market share anyway !

From bigfooty.com

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132259

"..... The Matthews factor. Is often not given enough credit. An amzing man with incredible way of bringing people together. He has amassed a support team of people who are 2nd to none in their fields and are always on the cutting edge in terms of injury management, fitness, maintenance, medical, statistics, psychology, the list just goes on and on. When he came to Brisbane he did so on his own terms. He seperated the football department from the operations of the rest of the club (compared to say Hawthorn and Dermie with his finger in a zillion pies). He installed his right hand man Football Manager who by all reports rules with an iron fist (how often have you seen Graeme Allan smile on tv or in a picture?). Astute and savvy with their spending, yet never skimping on inferior services or products. A complete reassment and cleanout of all football staff from the bootstudders, trainers and courier up to the player welfare manager occured when they arrived. Only a handful retained their jobs. Matthews and Allan demand nothing short of the best and that's what they set out to get.

Then entire setup of the Lions football operations, the calibre of the support staff, the committment of the players and staff, the dollars committment to the best of the best is what has made them great.

If that all falls over, then things will come crashing down."

[sharpie]

i'll give footyhead one thing - that last post was the most comprehendable of any of his posts on this forum.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

How Fickle Do You Feel?

This is from the Swans official website

Roos indicated that it was imperative for the club to push for the finals each season, as he believes this is the only way to ensure long-lasting success in Sydney.

"I certainly don't think, as the Sydney Swans, you can afford to do what St Kilda has done - not that they planned it - but there's no way know we can afford to finish bottom of the ladder for three years and get the best six kids in the country - that's just not going to happen," Roos said.

"It's not feasible in Sydney otherwise you're probably not going to be in business in three years time."


I think he's wrong! And I dead-set reckon this preconception may stop us from winning a flag!