Quick Question - Where is Nick Davis?

[swansrule100]

Originally posted by Whitefox
It's not the same attitude at all. It's something that makes you feel better about yourself.Nick's played 100 games, you trained with a club. If Sydney don't tolerate a lazy and laid back attitude, and that's why you didn't go any further there -- why do they still have Nick, if you say he suffers from the same attitude?

If you would have made it, and then had a career where on average you were injured around every 4 - 6 weeks and often forced the carry those injuries into games, only to be injured again -- you too, might have sometimes asked yourself was it all worthwhile.

Last year would have been a pretty good time for him to turn it up and throw it all away if he was weak or a head case. He didn't. So where's this lack of mental toughness crap coming from?

If you're waiting for him to turn into an onfield workhorse, you'll be waiting forever. Then again someone like him who can damage sides with few possessions, doesn't have to.

What's going through his head? Well today it's training, Newcastle, Cranbourne and Eagle Farm.

Thats the best post ive read all week.
Nick Davis is a great player !

[SwallowdaFonz]

Originally posted by liz
[snip]
But I know I too assess players against what I think they are capable of rather than any absolute scale. I guess our hopes sometimes get mixed up with reality.

Whether a player is a super-star, a foot soldier or a rookie, I reckon it is fair enough to expect them to play hard, train hard, eat right and be a good clubman. Rightly or wrongly, this is what some hold against Davis - he is percieved to be not meeting these expectations.

Say the percpetions are true, and Davis is a slacker. Would you drop him for his bad attitude, given his talent and goal-kicking prowess? Some would say yes, for the sake of team unity, while others would say no (judge him solely on his worth to the side). It is in answering this question that the issue of judging him against his perceived potential comes up. He shouldn't be obliged to fulfil our high hopes, but he does have the same obligation as other highly-paid players to do all he can to realise his own potential.

[LittleSchneider]

That is the best post on this issue yet. I think you summed it up well SwallowdaFonz.
I guess its what your perception is and what you believe is 'best for the team' that will decide how you view Davis.

Spot on!

[mocaholic]

Originally posted by stellation
I was a little drunk when I wrote that

Great, isn't it? Although it's not as good as being a LOT drunk.

Bottom line is that from reading these posts we all believe that a fit and firing Nick Davis is extremely valuable to our club, and not having him, for injury or otherwise (and there have been a couple of G1 races recently) is very frustrating. We have seen glimpses of what he can deliver, and we want it all the time.

[CureTheSane]

I haven't been drunk for way too long

I had better do something about that this weekend.
Or perhaps at the Grand Prix tomorrow.

[chammond]

Originally posted by CureTheSane
I haven't been drunk for way too long

Is that what love does to you??

[Matt79]

Originally posted by liz
Fair enough - you're far more qualified than most (and definitely than me!) to make a call on this.

Given your background, are you surprised at how many players seem to get to an AFL club yet still take a few years to understand how much work is required at AFL level?

Or do you reckon that most realise it but it just takes a few years for their bodies to be capable of matching their wills?

Given that you work with boys just a year or two away from being drafted (at the top end of your range) do you reckon that 17 is the right age for them to be drafted?

Hi liz,

Some really interesting questions you raise!

In repsonse to your first question, I honestly believe that AFL footy is the most physically demanding game in the world and for most up and comers, junior footy, particularly in Sydney is just not even close to the same level of intensity or talent of other competitions and of course the AFL. I'd imagine the transition from junior / state footy to AFL level would be unbelievably huge for most draftees and naturually would take time for them to adjust. Also remember that from the day you are drafted, you suddenly become a full-time footballer and not just on weekends and training after school footballer.

I know this sounds cliche but particularly in response to the last two questions you raise, it really depends on the individual. You see some players who from the age of 14, you can just tell there is something special in their footy ability and has the potential to be anything at AFL level even at a young age, say Chris Judd who from his first year looked, "superstar" and was ready to be drafted. On the other hand you see youngsters who have the football skills but not the maturity or physical strength to be drafted at 17 and so often you see them burn out once being drafted because of the extra pressure put on them to physically develop and become mentally strong in a short amount of time.

In fairness to the AFL and most clubs (Sydney particularly) they are making a genuine attempt to develop their young draftees, not just on the footy field but also in dealing with media, fan expectations and dealing with being a 'celebrity' of sorts. They are doing it better now than ever before.

Hope that helps!

[Nico]

Originally posted by SwallowdaFonz
Whether a player is a super-star, a foot soldier or a rookie, I reckon it is fair enough to expect them to play hard, train hard, eat right and be a good clubman. Rightly or wrongly, this is what some hold against Davis - he is percieved to be not meeting these expectations.

Say the percpetions are true, and Davis is a slacker. Would you drop him for his bad attitude, given his talent and goal-kicking prowess? Some would say yes, for the sake of team unity, while others would say no (judge him solely on his worth to the side). It is in answering this question that the issue of judging him against his perceived potential comes up. He shouldn't be obliged to fulfil our high hopes, but he does have the same obligation as other highly-paid players to do all he can to realise his own potential.

Doing the right things for the sake of team unity is part of being solely judged on a player's worth to the team. When someone has a continuing bad attitude, and other players of slightly lesser ability who do all the team things, are continually overlooked or given lesser opportunities, team unity is affected sooner or later. How many times are players moved on from clubs and people scratch their heads wondering why, given their obvious talent.

In many cases it is because of the above, but it is kept in club.

It is called team discipline.

[liz]

Originally posted by SwallowdaFonz


Say the percpetions are true, and Davis is a slacker. Would you drop him for his bad attitude, given his talent and goal-kicking prowess?

Depending on the degree, yes I would.

But this perception of Davis is based on shaky evidence, surely.

He had almost no pre-season before the 2003 season yet put together a pretty good season, won a couple of games for the team and was a contributor in pretty much all of them.

He had his first strong pre-season in years leading into 2004 and looked in top shape against Brisbane in round 1 and threatened to win that game off his own boot before the unfortunate injury.

First game back after recovering from the groin strain he again was in superb shape before incurring another - unrelated - injury, this one pretty severe and hard to mend without rest.

The most supportable criticism of him last year is probably that he tried to play when he wasn't fit. Maybe he was entirely honest with himself and/or with the club on how bad the injury was. But the evidence is that he was desparate to get out there and contribute to the team.

We have nothing to judge him on this year, but will have to be patient given that the lingering effects of last year's foot problem have robbed him of another pre-season.

I don't think anyone would claim he is another Jared Crouch in terms of the way he prepares himself. But then Crouch seems to be an absolute freak in that department. To single out one player because they don't emulate the absolute top shelf may be a bit unfair. How many of the rest of the team would stack up in that department?

The answer is that unless one is an insider within the club, one probably doesn't have a clue on these matters.

Yes, it was reported that he went AWOL for a short time last season and was also reported that Roos was unimpressed. But there a probably only a couple of posters on this board who know anything of the details behind this and none of them is slamming Davis.

So should we not be asking whether the perceptions are supportable before asserting that his worth to the team is less than we are capable of observing on-field?

[BAM_BAM]

Originally posted by liz
The most supportable criticism of him last year is probably that he tried to play when he wasn't fit. Maybe he was entirely honest with himself and/or with the club on how bad the injury was. But the evidence is that he was desparate to get out there and contribute to the team.

I agree with what you've said Liz in that unless we are inside the club and are privy to this information we have no idea of how he is perceived by the coaches or other players. Just because it is perceived to be by the fans does not mean it is the case.

Just a comment on the part I quoted though, in putting himself on the field with his injury perhaps he was doing the best thing for the club at the time. IIRC around the time he returned we were missing one of our high profile forwards in Micky O. Perhaps he may have been a week off being completely right and playing to cover that gap and doing the team thing only set back his recovery. And I'm not disagreeing with you, although I wonder how much choice he was given to play. Was the pressure to please and dispel his negators too much?

I think most people on here are holding a grudge at his comments which were printed in the media last year. This was coming from a frustrated young man who was trying his best to be what everyone wants him to be. I'm sure most people will admit to giving a spray when they feel low and things aren't going their way. For anyone who hasn't, let me kneel in front of you and take the holy sacrament come Sunday.

I can't remember who it was that commented on the SMH's coverage of the Roos press conference, but the essence of the post was how good it was for the coach to be quoted accurately. Perhaps it would be good if we were able to read everyone's comments in the correct and full context.

I would also like to think we are open minded enough to at least let Nick take the field this year before the arrows start flying.

I hold Nick's ability in high regard, but I hold him in even higher regard. Every time the kids have approached him for an autograph or photo he has been great with them and always courteous and more than happy making the kids look up to him. IMO this is more important than anything as adults we may feel. The young kids who worship him and continue to play the sport to emulate his ability is more important. And before anyone fires back about kids picking up on the attitude, the only way young kids do that is by listening to the opinion of the adults surrounding them.

[sharp9]

Originally posted by BAM_BAM

I can't remember who it was that commented on the SMH's coverage of the Roos press conference, but the essence of the post was how good it was for the coach to be quoted accurately

I remember everything about you..how come yopu don't remember me?

'Twas I.

[ROK Lobster]

Originally posted by BAM_BAM
I hold Nick's ability in high regard, but I hold him in even higher regard. Every time the kids have approached him for an autograph or photo he has been great with them and always courteous and more than happy making the kids look up to him.

Here, here. My kids love him (unlike some other sarcastic arsewipe at the club who holds himself in much higher regard than he is entitled to and enjoys bagging 5 year olds when he thinks he cannot be heard.)

[cressakel]

Originally posted by mocaholic
Put me firmly in the former bucket. I'm saddened you have little time for me but that's OK. We have so few genuinely talented players - and like you I put Davis high up the skilled AFL ladder - that of course he comes under scrutiny when he's not playing. I believe he is absolutely critical to us taking that extra step - having our gutsy, workmanlike midfield rotation will only go so far... a fit and firing Davis, resting in the FP, would give us an added class element. Him doing that together with Schneider would be the icing on the cake.

I know he's been injured. But my frustrations stem more from his apparent - ok, perceived - attitude than anything. To me he doesn't have the mental strength to play injured a la Magic, Willo, Leapin et al.

Analogy with Jr also doesn't work imo as for all his perceived 'faults' (looks lazy, or like he doesn't care, gets out stupidly etc) he played 120~ tests and for 10 years. Plus, even if he got out from a rash shot, he would take a blinder or two in the slips. If only we were to get that dual service from Nick D!

O'Loughlin doesn't play injured - ever...

Only player I have known to take himself off with a leg injury which the medical staff couldn't locate and returned O'Loughlin to the field....

Has possibly missed a week or two here and there with a broken fingernail....

[cressakel]

Originally posted by Snowy
Mark Waugh used to drop sitters quite regularly though which sort of negated the blinders. He was a great slipper but he dropped a lot more than people realise.

One or two dropped catches at Merv, Craig McDermott, Dizzy and Pigeon's pace coupled with Warnie's spin over the years isn't too bad I would think.

I am sure the universally acknowledged greatest slips fieldsman (Simpson, G.Chappell, M.Taylor, I.Botham, V.Richards etc etc) would have dropped the odd sitter or two over the years.

It is always the odd sitter that people remember more than the numerous outstanding catches that cricketers like M.Waugh took.

Reminds me of older folk like Parents & Grandparents (and presumably Great-Grandparents & Great-Great Grandparents as well) advising that the Melbourne weather is different these days as Summer was always Summer (ie. 35 plus every day) and Winter was always Winter (below 12 every day) in the old days....

Croc of s***e, as I always countered with " If that was the case, how come there wasn't reports of water restrictions in summer and mass flooding in winter " among other things....

The mind remembers what it wants to remember, which in your case is Junior's one or two sitters quantified by 30 - you Steve Waugh lover and Mark Waugh hater, you.....

[NMWBloods]

Davis has averaged 1.6 goals per game in his past 77 games.

Without injuries that translates into 35 goals per season, which would be a very handy return.

This compares pretty reasonably with other small forward goalkickers.

Although I wouldn't be as harsh on O'Loughlin as Cressakel, I'm not sure if he's the right comparison. It's impossible for any of us to judge a player's ability to play through injuries, and it's even difficult for the trainers/medicos to know too.