Jude Bolton :)

[pillowtalk]

Jude has had a good start to the year. He is not a star but his courage and determination are second to none. I definitely rate him as captain material. He has the respect of his team mates, he is well spoken, polite off field, gutsy on field and passionate about the club and a great role model. All the leadership qualities a captain should have.

[liz]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
I read "I am not convinced he is good enough to get us to a Premiership" as being the same as that. He doesn't seem stupid enough to think that it is all up to one person, which you assumed he meant.

I note though that you also guessed what he meant.

I never assumed he meant that Jude could do it on his own. The "face value" interpretation that I made of his comment is that we could never win a premiership while one of our 22 players was of the calibre of Bolton, a statement that I found bewildering.

The problem with the alternative interpretation that I offered is that the only people who seem to think Jude is our no 1 midfielder are those who like to knock him at every opportunity. Why don't we just accept that he is a pretty decent number 2 or number 3 midfielder - which he is?

Bomber Thompson was "On the Couch" last week and either Mike Sheehan or Walls starting grilling him on his expectations of Ottens (despite Ottens' improvement in form since he'd taken a verbal bashing from one of them early in the season). They were trying to get Thompson to say that he was looking for more out of Ottens. Bomber wasn't having any of it and instead asked why people couldn't just appreciate Ottens for what he was - a very good if imperfect player who had a role to play in his team but wasn't expected to win every game off his own boot.

Most Swans fans seem to be able to apply that philosophy to a player like Brett Kirk yet not to Jude Bolton.

[NMWBloods]

Partly because as a first-round draft pick people still expect a lot.

Partly because he is meant to be our leading younger midfielder.

"The "face value" interpretation that I made of his comment is that we could never win a premiership while one of our 22 players was of the calibre of Bolton, a statement that I found bewildering."

I really didn't read that into it. If that's what he did actually mean, then yes, it was a rather bizarre thing to say.

[Sean]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
Partly because as a first-round draft pick people still expect a lot.

I've never quite understood that as a reason for criticism. He was selected at about the right spot and he'd probably get us a top 10 pick if we were to trade him - or at least he'd be worth a top 10 pick. Actually getting it these days would be tough.

He seems to get compared to Hayes all the time but it wasn't Jude that was the wrong pick in that draft.

Partly because he is meant to be our leading younger midfielder.

Which he is isn't he? He'll never replace Paul Williams because he is not that type. Ablett, McVeigh or one of the other youngsters like Willoughby needs to replace Williams.

[NMWBloods]

Originally posted by Sean
I've never quite understood that as a reason for criticism.

It's a valid reason - you expect to get what you pay for. A top 10 is very "expensive" and people expect a certain outcome.

He was selected at about the right spot and he'd probably get us a top 10 pick if we were to trade him - or at least he'd be worth a top 10 pick. Actually getting it these days would be tough.

I think now he is looking like a top 10 draft pick. Before this season I don't think so.

Which he is isn't he? He'll never replace Paul Williams because he is not that type. Ablett, McVeigh or one of the other youngsters like Willoughby needs to replace Williams.

Again, it's the view that he hasn't been good enough if he is our best midfielder. In terms of an inside midfielder, he's not been as good as Sam Mitchell for example.

[Sean]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
[B]It's a valid reason - you expect to get what you pay for. A top 10 is very "expensive" and people expect a certain outcome.

It's only valid if the criticism is warranted. He's finished 3rd & 5th in the B&F for a team that finished 3rd & 5th. Top 10 in the Brownlow and in our top 3 for the last couple of years. He was also Top 5 for us in the coaches award last season (I think) and AFAIK he has been voted in our best 2 players by other AFL players once or twice.

You don't expect a champion with a top 10 pick - if he was top 3 or perhaps even top 5 then perhaps the criticism would be warranted - but he wasn't.

Now, Fosdike on the other hand ...

I think now he is looking like a top 10 draft pick. Before this season I don't think so.

He did in 2003 also. Last year? Not sure but he wasn't as bad as many thought - he was still one of our best.

Again, it's the view that he hasn't been good enough if he is our best midfielder. In terms of an inside midfielder, he's not been as good as Sam Mitchell for example.

He isn't our best midfielder though. Why does that line keep getting used? It's like we use it just so we can criticise him.

In regards to the comparison with Mitchell, that's a matter of opinion. IMHO opinion Bolton is a better player and has achieved a lot more but Mitchell is younger - ask me again in a few years.

[NMWBloods]

Been through the quality of Bolton's games before this year on a regular basis and not going through it again.

After Willo, who can only have 1 or 2 years left, who is our best midfielder? Who is our best inside midfielder overall anyway? Who should be?

Mitchell is averaging 25 ppg this year and managed 19ppg in his 2nd and 3rd seasons.

Bolton is 22ppg this year, and didn't manage to break 19ppg until his 5th season.

I think Mitchell has been a better inside player - his clearances have been far more effective. I think this is not so much the case this year and it's arguable which is better now - however Bolton has taken longer to reach that point, which is why he was criticised in the past.

[Newbie]

That 1998 draft got the worst in the last 10 years. Out of that draft, I dont think there is one champion player playing today. Bolton (and Hayes) got to come close as the best player from that draft.

[NMWBloods]

It may have been better to have traded one or two of those picks for players. Or is that what we did?

[bandwagon]

This got me thinking as to what quality of player a top 10 pick gets. I reckon most peoples expectations are way too high....

Looking at the years 96-2000, in the pick range 6-10 give you 25 players with J.Bolton slap in the middle:
Nathan Brown
James Walker
Kris Massie
Chris Tarrant
Chad Cornes
Shane O'Bree
Josh Carr
Jude Bolton
Mark McVeigh
Damien Cupido
Joel Corey
Luke McPharlin
Dylan Smith
Daniel Motlop
Kayne Pettifer
Jordan McMahon
with another 9 players no longer on an AFL list.

So I reckon JB is at least par for the course, ie we got exactly what we paid for....

[Wil]

Everything I say is bizarre.

I just think Jude Bolton at R/R plays the most important position in an AFL team. But especially so in the Swans stoppage happy style of play.

To say all 18 players on the field has an equal role to play in winning is a bit silly I think. Obviously to win a premiership you need quality in that whole 18 (and beyond) but I think the on-ballers are key to dominating games and making it easier for everyone else.

[Newbie]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
It may have been better to have traded one or two of those picks for players. Or is that what we did?

We traded Mooney for pick 8 and O'Farrell for pick 4, both of whom are no longer playing. I think all clubs realized the quality of the 1998 draft and thus were willing to trade early picks. Comparing Bolton to pick 8 in any other years is unfair from that point of view. If we consider that we effectively traded Mooney to get Bolton, it is easy to see that we are a clear winner of that deal.

[Sean]

Originally posted by NMWBloods
After Willo, who can only have 1 or 2 years left, who is our best midfielder? Who is our best inside midfielder overall anyway? Who should be?

Kirk and Bolton are probably about equal at the moment but Kirk has probably been better during the Roos era.

When Williams does retire essentially Bolton's role should stay the same. IMHO it's preferrable that your best midfielder is not the in and under type - unless of course we can find a Voss. Mitchell is actually a good example - very good player but the Hawks would probably have him at 2 or 3 in their midfield and maybe lower if you conside Hodge a midfielder.

Jude can't replace Williams - he's not as good and can't play that role. Someone else will need to step up.

I think Mitchell has been a better inside player - his clearances have been far more effective. I think this is not so much the case this year and it's arguable which is better now - however Bolton has taken longer to reach that point, which is why he was criticised in the past.

Fair enough. I just can't quite judge Mitchell yet because he has been good in a poor side - Jude has been good in a good side. Having Everitt tapping to him must help as well.

Slightly OT but wasn't Mitchell actually considered one of the better players in a very good draft but was overlooked due to the "men against boys" theory?