Bottom 2 teams in Sydney AFL Div.1 relegated?

[No Idea]

I heard a whisper that the league have decided that the bottom two teams in Sydney Div 1 may now be relegated instead of the bottom team as stipulated at the start of the season. As it stands that means both St George and Wests could be on the way out. A shame really when both sides have history on their side and may be going through a bad patch.

For the past decade or so St George magoos have been at the top of the table or there abouts in reserves. Wests have played in only a handful of finals in the same period, but over time have helped prop the league and other clubs up financialy when they were struggling. Some memory the league has. All this is so the league can promote Southern Power and Macquarie Uni in the same year and try and make div.1 stronger. How does this help clubs such as St George, Wests and say Campbelltown who this year have two grades playing at seperate grounds, keep unity within their clubs. It doesn't and only see's players leave, further depleting a clubs list. Campbelltown from all reports lost players to Camden this year due to their mates in first grade playing away, where as at Camden they could socialise with their mates all year.

As I said the idea to seperate clubs that I can't see being relegated in the Premier League (if that can be the case) in order to promote two clubs with no chance of a Senior Premier League Club, unlike Manly and UTS, will only weaken the overall player depth in premier league.

Anyway as my moniker suggest I have No Idea and it was only a whisper. Perhaps someone with more of an Idea will be able to put me in my place and clarify the Whisper on way or another? Enough dribble and I look forward to some healthy debate about the league shifting the goal posts mid season.

[BeeEmmAre]

Don't hold me to this, but I am of the belief it was always considered that it would be two teams with the ability to go up and down, but it wasn't to be judged purely by on field results anyway.

Besides, it's far too early to say the Power and Warriors will be the top two there at the end of the year anyway.

UTS and Parra are both close enough to be there, and if it was the Bats, they wouldn't be allowed to go up anyway, unless their senior team was promoted to Premier League, which I'm pretty sure is still untouchable for the time being.

[shearer]

I really hope that you are wrong. I think it would be a very bad thing for both the league and the clubs involved if either were to go down.

It will come to the stage in the 2nd half of the year when the first grade side will drop down and play ressies and ressies will play seniors.If our guys are out of senior finals contention and the survival of the ressies is on the line, of course we would look at playing the likes of Dec,Shiners, McBride,Talbot etc in reserves.

How does that benefit the standard of the comp?Imagine if with a few rounds to go Wests play us and in reserve grade you have the likes of Withers, Eurell, Watkins, Kassem up against the guys i mentioned. It is pure farce but a situation that our clubs have been put in.


Our club been around for 81 years in the highest division and Wests maybe longer?It would be a great shame if we werent there next year because of one bad season.

[Norris Lurker]

It's an interesting hypothetical Shearer.

Taking it a step further, if late in the season St George and Wests were fighting to avoid relegation in First Division, St George were also out of the running for the finals in Premier Division but Wests were in the running for finals spots.
St George could afford to "tank" Premier Division to bolster their First Division, but it would create an interesting situation for Wests.
Given that Wests' first team in that hypothetical (and it is a hypothetical only) are stronger than St George's firsts, would they call St George's bluff by also fielding their top players in First Division, making it likely that St George's reserves would go down? But if they did that, they'd risk dropping the points in Premier Division, which could affect their finals position. Could they take that risk?

Could be an interesting scenario.

[shearer]

Norris you make a good point and it only creates more of a farcical situation.

I dont understand the push for Southern Power and Mac Uni, with respect to those sides when they were up against Manly, Sydney Uni & UNSW/ES they also were getting beaten by them.

[DLH]

Campbelltown from all reports lost players to Camden this year due to their mates in first grade playing away, where as at Camden they could socialise with their mates all year.

Camden have sides in Divisions 2 and 4. I'm sure there are plenty of times when they are split up this season as well.

Looking at the weekly fixtures it seems on the vast majority of occasions teams are playing together, and it's the same for all clubs in having to cater for the odd situation when teams are split.

Surely providing more competitive football at all levels will provide a greater incentive for people to participate rather than travelling halfway across Sydney every second week to get smashed.

If clubs want to rort the system in order to avoid relegation in a particular grade then I guess that is their choice. I can remember this happening a number of times over the years with clubs trying to get their Reserve Grade sides into the finals in the last round of the season.

[Pekay]

Its only the lower grades. If its not Premier Division who really cares, right Dalts?

[Noods]

I agree with DLH, the League is doing the right thing in attempting to make the divisions more even and therefore having more close matches.
I also think it will take a few seasons to sort itself out.
Nobody, enjoys playing in an uncompetitive fixture neither the winner nor the loser.
I can't see the logic in reasoning St George and Wests are somehow hard done by if they are relegated to make way for sides who would be more competive (at least the results in Div One this year suggest the promoted sides would do quite well).
If it is just one poor season they will be restored to their rightful place after a year, if the problem is more intrinsic perhaps they may be more correctly graded in the lower division.
If they are relegated, there will be 4 premier league sides in Div One (although Campbelltown may be relegated a further division on the current ladder), meaning the splitting of club resources will occur less frequently than it does for Campbelltown and Balmain this year.
In time all clubs will need to adjust to the splitting of resources. Perhaps as this becomes more common place there may be greater co-operation between clubs in the use of resources, physios, water carriers etc.
I think the perception Premier League clubs are somehow on a different level to those in the lower divisions is clearly wrong. The idea that the Premier League is a state league such as the WAFL, SANFL and QFL.
I have been involved with Sydney Uni for 20 years, when promoted in 2007 our reserves were immediately very competitive making the preliminary final, yet had been runners up the year before in the division below. It is no surprise to me to see the Premier League reserve's sides struggling to cope with UTS and Manly's seniors.
UTS is an extremely organised and professionally run club, there on field success is no fluke.
Whilst the very best premier league players are clearly the best in Sydney those who round out the Premier League club lists are not markedly superior to those at clubs in the lower tiers. Most players simply play as amateurs at the most convenient club across all the divisions. Certainly the level of competition means players at Premier League clubs are more equipped to cope with the higher level.
The pool of players is inadequate to have an 'elite' level competition in Sydney.
Of note is the clubs at the top of Division One have multiple senior teams rather than the traditional Seniors, Reserves and U/18 structure.
Sydney Uni have four sides and could field 5. UTS and UNSW are very similar. Pennant Hills have always had a 3rd senior side. Manly have 3 sides.
Playing your senior players in the reserves to maintain a position in Division One appears a self defeating exercise, however it is a matter for the individual club, I don't know how many senior footballers would be happy to be gropped for the purpose either.

[shearer]

I can't see the logic in reasoning St George and Wests are somehow hard done by if they are relegated to make way for sides who would be more competive (at least the results in Div One this year suggest the promoted sides would do quite well).


There is no evidence at all to suggest that these sides would be competitive, in fact if history is a guide, these teams struggled when up against UTS/Sydney Uni/UNSW/ES/Manly.

Players are aware of the big picture and understand the need for the club to remain "as one", as someone pointed out it is no different to dropping a few blokes so they can qualify for reserve grade finals which happens every year.

[shearer]

you misunderstood me Pekay, there are so many bloody divisions now im confused.

[tara]

Norris you make a good point and it only creates more of a farcical situation.

I dont understand the push for Southern Power and Mac Uni, with respect to those sides when they were up against Manly, Sydney Uni & UNSW/ES they also were getting beaten by them.

Shearer when was the last time that Mac Uni played UNSW in their senior grade? Im assuming your are referring to UTS.

As far as I can tell the AFL has a criteria that will determine promotion and relegation - it wont necessarily be automatic.

Given the young age of your list and the future improvement you'd expect as they develop not to mention the unknown factors such as recruitment post season I very much doubt that either yourselves nor Wests will drop.

[Hawknik]

lol, love the discussion....

I am very confident it was automatic relegation for last place. However, should that team be unable to be relegated (ie that Club already has a side in the lower div, they will not relegate) then the League may look into relegating the second last place side.

Is interesting to note that Manly and UTS are leading the league in Div 1. It was very interesting to hear at the meeting re the restructure people say that the old SAFL was so far behind in quality and these sides would struggle in the new Div 1. Doesn't seem to be the case with UTS and Manly clearly more than competing!

In saying that, if the restructure criteria was set that 1 team down/up per year, then I think it should stay that way, and I believe the League would leave it that way, so relax.

Should a Club come last in a Div, then deal with it, relegate and fight to get yourself back up to where you want to be. It is all about making a strong Club through your grades and making Sydney AFL competitive throughout all Div's.

Re providing assistance to other Clubs for personnel, Mac Uni have offered such to any Club playing at our ground, whether it be water runners, physio's we are happy to help organise, the travelling Club just covers the costs. Easy.

Anyway, the majority of the time, you play at the same ground anyway.

Shearer is right, Clubs have always dropped players to qualify for finals, so what has changed in this scenario?

Also, I would guess that Sth Power and Mac Uni in Div 2 would be well in the mix on the ladder in Div 1 this year, but hey, am sure that will get some responses........

[The Duck]

I still do not think those people involved in clubs outside the premier league understand where we are comming from. The premier league should be made up of the top 10 clubs in Sydney football. To complete in Premier League these clubs should contain a senior team, a reserve grade team and an under 18 side. If the likes of UTS fit this criteria then they should be promoted. I still do not understand why Manly and UTS are playing against Premier League Reserve Grade teams. Under what has been mentioned on here previously (Promotion of stronger sides), what happens if East Coast, Pennant Hills or Easts third grade sides have great years. Do they go into Division One and play against the same clubs reserve grade teams. This compeition panders to the weak too often and is opening up itself to become a joke. I see nothing wrong with sides like Manly and UTS becomming strong enough, both on and off the field to be apart of Premier League, but until then, stay in of Division 2!

[Noods]

Shearer, the two "promoted" sides, UTS and Manly, are clearly the best sides in Div One, they haven't lost to any of the Premier Reserves sides.
As you point out Mac Uni And Southern Power were not as strong against those sides, but were certainly a lot closer than some of the clubs now at the bottom of Div One.
The point remains the initiative will mean sides in the same divisions will be more evenly matched.
Certainly Balmain and Cmpbelltown are evidence the sides at the bottom of last years Premier League reserves are a fair way behind the better sides in the old Div One Seniors.
I can understand your concern with St George as they are traditionally very strong through the grades and appear to be having one poor season in the reserves.
However, a promotion/relegation system based on merit rather reputation, in my opinion is preferable.
Perhaps as Tara suggests some discretion may be exercised by the league but the subjectivity makes for controversy.
The Amatuer competitions in the footballing states use a promotion/relegation system sucessfully, I would say Sydney football is more closely aligned to that system than the State League system.

[Norris Lurker]

what happens if East Coast, Pennant Hills or Easts third grade sides have great years. Do they go into Division One and play against the same clubs reserve grade teams.

I think they've already ruled that no club can have 2 teams in the same division.