Norths down, Power up

[Mug Punter]

It's a shame that this re-structure didn't happen a few years back. St Clair would still be around, they were a good bunch of blokes. It encourages the formation of clubs, giving them an opportunity to start with one team, and progress from there. Look how far along UTS have come (albeit in the heart of the city, players falling over themselves to get a run)

Couldn't agree more, outrageous that they were axed and a couple of years later we have this structure that would have saved them.

If everyone had DLH's small-minded attitude then no new clubs would ever form. I guess he had a point back then as St Clair may have imoinged in Penriff's ability to field two teams but under the current structure their could surely be no issue with St Clair being resurrected. The more senior teams the better I say....

[Pace To Burn]

TLM, we have applied for our seniors to go up to Division 2 - we now wait and see which way the league goes.



I believe it will be:
Div 1-2 - St George swap Mac Uni
Div 2-3 - Campbelltown swap UNSWES, East Coast swap Nor-West
Div 3-4 - Bye swap Sydney Uni
Div 4-new/out - Bye swap Maroubra

That creates 10 in every grade.
I've heard rumours about Holroyd-Parramatta dropping a team and Southern Power getting a third one. If that's the case, I think the following will also happen:

Div 3-4 - Holroyd-Parramatta swap UNSWES
Div 4-new/out - Holroyd-Parramatta swap Southern Power

This would leave:

Premier: Balmain, Campbelltown, East Coast, North Shore, Pennant Hills, St George, Sydney University, UNSWES, Western Suburbs, Wollongong.
Division 1: East Coast, Macquarie University, Manly-Warringah, North Shore, Pennant Hills, Sydney University, UNSWES, UTS, Western Suburbs, Wollongong.
Division 2: Balmain, Camden, Holroyd-Parramatta, Manly-Warringah, Nor-West, Southern Power, St George, Sydney University, UNSWES, UTS.
Division 3: Campbelltown, East Coast, Macquarie University, Moorebank, Pennant Hills, Penrith, Southern Power, Sydney University, UNSWES, UTS.
Division 4: Camden, Macquarie University, Manly-Warringah, Maroubra, Moorebank, Nor-West, Penrith, Southern Power, UNSWES, UTS.

I've also heard talk about a fifth Sydney Uni team, which would create 11 in Div 4 and a bye there.

Must admit i dont think our twos should drop on this years results. This is the problem as shearer has said with putting the next seasons gradings on the last years results. We recruit well and have some good 18s come up and we smash Div 3, but is not a good spot for 1st graders coming back etc. Why not play some pre-season games for say the bottom 3 divs to get a gauge of who should be where. Oh wait a minute then HQ might have to earn their money . If you hadnt won a game all year fair enough but when your only a game or two behind 2-3 sides its a bit harsh. By the way we wernt even consulted by the muppets as to how we were going and if we expected to improve. Why havent the all conquering UTS applied to go up?

[Pekay]

If I had a dollar for every time someone on here said "you can't get any gauge of performance off pre-season" I'd be a rich man.
The notion of grading off pre-season games is farcical and flawed, especially with cricketers making a good % of club lists. The only fair barometer is the previous years performances. No club should be exempt based on where their seniors sit in respect of division.
The days of the Premier Division clubs running senior footy in Sydney should be behind us now, as they make up only a fifth of the overall teams. Sure, respect where due,they are the pinnacle of Sydney footy, but they do little, if nothing for the smaller clubs, monetary or otherwise, so why should a smaller clubs ambition of reaching a higher grade be subject to what a premier club wants, or believe is its right?
As Colesy said, they have ambitions of one day playing Division 1, as do we, as I'm sure Mick from Riff and his mob would. It's the highest grade we can strive for these days, and shouldn't be closed, or out of reach because some Prems club don't want their out-of-form seniors or developing players to get some match time in Division 2 or 3 as opposed to Division 1 if they can't compete. This isn't a tirade directed at you Bucks, rather at the idea that these big clubs twos have a right to hold their spot in Div 1.
I think C-Town's & Balmain's ressies and their results, coupled with a forfeit thrown on there, are justification enough for their dropping a division or two. If you have the good recruits and graduating 18s coming through, then it should only be for a year or two, and perhaps a team, player and club lifting premiership along the way can only bond the group together.
It won't sit well with some on this forum, but the re-structure of our divisions this year was what this league has needed for many years, and time will only strengthen the judgment of those at head office.

[BeeEmmAre]

Must admit i dont think our twos should drop on this years results. This is the problem as shearer has said with putting the next seasons gradings on the last years results. We recruit well and have some good 18s come up and we smash Div 3, but is not a good spot for 1st graders coming back etc. Why not play some pre-season games for say the bottom 3 divs to get a gauge of who should be where. Oh wait a minute then HQ might have to earn their money . If you hadnt won a game all year fair enough but when your only a game or two behind 2-3 sides its a bit harsh. By the way we wernt even consulted by the muppets as to how we were going and if we expected to improve. Why havent the all conquering UTS applied to go up?

Pace, AFAIK the automatic promotion/relegation is done on ladder positions, and your boys were last. If Campbelltown is good enough, you'll only be in Div 3 for one year.
I can't believe I'm defending UTS here, but I'm absolutely certain they'll apply for Premier, and I'm just as certain they won't get it. Disappointing for them, as I'm sure they'd like to get as far away from knives and nunchuks as they possibly can.

No one has said the new system would be perfect from the start - it will take at least 3-5 years to balance out. Patience is needed, but I for one am a massive supporter of it - and if it brings in Maroubra, Auburn and St Ives in only its second year, well that's just magnificent for Sydney footy?

[Pekay]

Pace, AFAIK the automatic promotion/relegation is done on ladder positions, and your boys were last. If Campbelltown is good enough, you'll only be in Div 3 for one year.
I can't believe I'm defending UTS here, but I'm absolutely certain they'll apply for Premier, and I'm just as certain they won't get it. Disappointing for them, as I'm sure they'd like to get as far away from knives and nunchuks as they possibly can.

No one has said the new system would be perfect from the start - it will take at least 3-5 years to balance out. Patience is needed, but I for one am a massive supporter of it - and if it brings in Maroubra, Auburn and St Ives in only its second year, well that's just magnificent for Sydney footy?

Geez that bloke was a wanker, tried and true knob knocker.
I don't think St Ives are a chance, they died a long time ago. The other two are a cert I'd imagine. And if a club like Camden, or even Penriff (Hypothetically, I'm not saying they are struggling for numbers at all) needed to drop a team to rebuild, then there is that option to do so. Helped our club better than any solution offered from the league admins of the day. (Which was nothing)

[Pace To Burn]

If I had a dollar for every time someone on here said "you can't get any gauge of performance off pre-season" I'd be a rich man.
The notion of grading off pre-season games is farcical and flawed, especially with cricketers making a good % of club lists. The only fair barometer is the previous years performances. No club should be exempt based on where their seniors sit in respect of division.
The days of the Premier Division clubs running senior footy in Sydney should be behind us now, as they make up only a fifth of the overall teams. Sure, respect where due,they are the pinnacle of Sydney footy, but they do little, if nothing for the smaller clubs, monetary or otherwise, so why should a smaller clubs ambition of reaching a higher grade be subject to what a premier club wants, or believe is its right?
As Colesy said, they have ambitions of one day playing Division 1, as do we, as I'm sure Mick from Riff and his mob would. It's the highest grade we can strive for these days, and shouldn't be closed, or out of reach because some Prems club don't want their out-of-form seniors or developing players to get some match time in Division 2 or 3 as opposed to Division 1 if they can't compete. This isn't a tirade directed at you Bucks, rather at the idea that these big clubs twos have a right to hold their spot in Div 1.
I think C-Town's & Balmain's ressies and their results, coupled with a forfeit thrown on there, are justification enough for their dropping a division or two. If you have the good recruits and graduating 18s coming through, then it should only be for a year or two, and perhaps a team, player and club lifting premiership along the way can only bond the group together.
It won't sit well with some on this forum, but the re-structure of our divisions this year was what this league has needed for many years, and time will only strengthen the judgment of those at head office.

Pace, AFAIK the automatic promotion/relegation is done on ladder positions, and your boys were last. If Campbelltown is good enough, you'll only be in Div 3 for one year.
I can't believe I'm defending UTS here, but I'm absolutely certain they'll apply for Premier, and I'm just as certain they won't get it. Disappointing for them, as I'm sure they'd like to get as far away from knives and nunchuks as they possibly can.

No one has said the new system would be perfect from the start - it will take at least 3-5 years to balance out. Patience is needed, but I for one am a massive supporter of it - and if it brings in Maroubra, Auburn and St Ives in only its second year, well that's just magnificent for Sydney footy?

Boys, i have been in favour of the grading since it was introduced and support the idea, i just dont agree with the automatic up/down. The whole idea of doing it was to get more competitive footy each week across all divs. On the flip side,What happens if a side wins a div and is put up the following year and loses a heap of players and then struggles and gets smashed every week.My point is not that teams worthy of promotion be held back or sides that are struggling not be relegated but at least consult with the club before making decisions.

[The Student]

I've also heard talk about a fifth Sydney Uni team, which would create 11 in Div 4 and a bye there.

That's correct, BMR - there is going to be a fifth grade, or Div 4, side next year which will give the club representation in every grade. I think it's a great idea and gives another 22 blokes a chance to play footy every week - this year there was quite a lot missing out on a game and the club has tried to rectify that.

[BeeEmmAre]

Boys, i have been in favour of the grading since it was introduced and support the idea, i just dont agree with the automatic up/down. The whole idea of doing it was to get more competitive footy each week across all divs. On the flip side,What happens if a side wins a div and is put up the following year and loses a heap of players and then struggles and gets smashed every week.My point is not that teams worthy of promotion be held back or sides that are struggling not be relegated but at least consult with the club before making decisions.

I do see what you're saying mate, but can you imagine the arguments if it is left solely to the administrators' opinions to decide which teams changed and which didn't?
Keeping it on results makes it black and white and everyone knows where they stand.

However, We failed in the finals and our promotion from below the No.1 spot is reliant on our alliance partners ECE going down. If ECE was to stay in Div 2, we wouldn't be able to go up because you can't have 11 in Div 2. Your swap with UNSWES (if/when it is confirmed) will be purely on final ladder position. As will all the other 1st v 10th swaps.
I believe (and I could be wrong) the Power will need someone to apply to go down from Div 1 for them to go up.


Oh, and I apologise to Holroyd-Parramatta for leaving their reserves out of my Div 4 predictions. With them, Auburn and Sydney Uni's fifth team that Student has just confirmed, that makes 13 in Div 4 (assuming Power put a third team in).

[Mug Punter]

No one has said the new system would be perfect from the start - it will take at least 3-5 years to balance out. Patience is needed, but I for one am a massive supporter of it - and if it brings in Maroubra, Auburn and St Ives in only its second year, well that's just magnificent for Sydney footy?

I agree totally with these sentiments. For years the challenge of having a new team get two teams plus the uneven gradings were a total disincentive to anyone starting a new senior club. Christ knows how UTS managed it and the blokes that started that club up deserve a medal.

Agree that it should be results based but also that clubs should not be forced to go up for whatever reasons they decide.

There will also be some teething problems and some admin issues for clubs (offset by the on-field advantages IMO) and I'd hate to be in charge of the fixture list at NSWAFL but surely that is what we pay them for.

Hopefully there is some real scope over the next 5 years for reversing the stagnation of senior football in Sydney. Here's a few ideas for starters re new teams

* Given the $200M plus investment by the AFL in GWS the fact that the only senior team due west of Parramatta is Penrith is blatantly unacceptable. Not a pop at Penrith either just a statement of the lack of support they have received. A cursory glance at a map of Sydney would state that senior teams in Blacktown and St Marys/St Clair is a must. Penrith should not be ignored in this and given resources too but their role in St Clair's demise should never be allowed to be repeated.

* Bankstown seniors should fill the gap at the second tier in the South West sector. Again, Liverpool should not be neglected.

* Great news re Maroubra looking at a senior club. Fasted growing junior club in the country, they should fill a region that has been missing for decades since the demise of South Sydney

* The upper North Shore clearly are capable of providing a senior team. With Hornsby juniors and possibly Forest added to the mix, surely the time is overdue for St Ives Senior AFC to be reborn.

Add in a few wildcards (Penshurst, North Ryde-Eastwood Westbrook, perhaps a Armed Services Team) and these 5 new teams plus some organic growth (surely North Shore and St George should be able to get a thirds up and running) could conceivably see 12+ new senior teams which could add two extra divisions within 5 years.

Hopefuly what will now occur is an environment where clubs can emerge and flourish and where existing clubs will be accountable and in control of their own destiny as their fortunes inevitably fluctuate.

What is totally unacceptable is for Team GWS to be imposed on us by the AFL and for there to be no real flow on benefit for senior Sydney football.

Apologies for the rant.....

[DLH]

Penrith should not be ignored in this and given resources too but their role in St Clair's demise should never be allowed to be repeated.

Would you care to expand on that?

This'll be interesting given Penrith directly saved the St.Clair senior club in 2003 when it took over it's administrative function for two years.

I didn't realise we were so powerful.

[tara]

Mug again do you realise the Bankstown seniors merged with Liverpool years ago - the liklihood of them reappearing is almost non existent at the moment.

The only reason for the name change from South West was to secure our financial future long term.

[Offal]

Regular Season or Finals?

What should be the criteria for going up? 18 wins 0 losses in the regular season with a percentage of 500 and boring blow outs week after week.

OR

Going out in straight sets in the finals.

I reckon the former and think Power should go up and Norths come down. Leaving the Power in Div 2 will mean more blow outs.

[boris]

offal, can i give you a scenario.

The Power are promoted to Div 1 for season 2010.

The league clearly states at the start of the 2010 season that only one team will be relegated from div 1 with 1 promoted from div 2.

Southern Power finish 2nd last in div 1 but the league decides at the end of the season to relegate you for the 2011 season, do you think thats fair?

[Pekay]

Hypothetically, only if Manly or Sydney Uni finished last, and can't be relegated would that be fair.

[Matty]

Hypothetically, only if Manly or Sydney Uni finished last, and can't be relegated would that be fair.

Why is this not clear cut? Surely it is very straight forward?
Prior to the season the league needs to make a decision to promote/relegate either 1 or 2 teams. Why should Manly, UTS or any other club get special treatment just because they have more numbers?
Obviously it is not the case here but if in future one of their teams finishes last then they should be relegated. If they happen to have a team already in the lower league then they can simply strengthen that team and the remaining players be filtered through the grades according to the ability.
Isn't the whole idea to make the comp more even?