Season 2016 - early days

[Pekay]

Dust off the Bob McConnell Trophy eh?

[Mug Punter]

Dust off the Bob McConnell Trophy eh?

Why not, the Club Championship in SFL and SFA Days was well sought after and very good reflection of the strongest club overall.

[Pekay]

Won't happen until we go back to the traditional structure of a First and Reserves for two divisions as in the old SFL and SFA. It's how all other leagues in Australia work.

Divisionalisation has worked to an extent but a hybrid model is required.

I'd like to see a return to this as well. Set times and grounds every week. Doubtful it will happen this year though.

[Jupiter]

I'd like to see a return to this as well. Set times and grounds every week. Doubtful it will happen this year though.

Agree, this would bring a lot more interest and spice back to the competitions - but also agree you need flexibility, an aspect of promotion/relegation + lower divisions. I hope the needed correction doesn't take as long as breaking the old cartels and competition inflexibility did.

[tara]

I'd like to see a return to this as well. Set times and grounds every week. Doubtful it will happen this year though.

I suggested a return when we had our club review however from what I gather the division structure will remain for a few years yet.

[Mug Punter]

Agree, this would bring a lot more interest and spice back to the competitions - but also agree you need flexibility, an aspect of promotion/relegation + lower divisions. I hope the needed correction doesn't take as long as breaking the old cartels and competition inflexibility did.

It's a balancing act.

There needs to be a two or three comps that are divisionalised so that clubs that get pummelled in the SFA (or it's equivalent) can go back and regroup. And those lower clubs also allow new clubs to form and grow too. I'd also like to see automatic promotion and relegation for one club - the recent experience of how Manly and UTS have stepped up pretty quickly shows this shouldn't be feared. An 8 Team SFL, a 10 team SFA and three or four comps 10 teams below. In time, and this wouldn't be something to rush, once new clubs get the two senior teams then you could have a SFA Div 2 as well. Brisbane has a much lower population than Sydney and I think it has at least four divisions of promotion and relegation

I just think the sense of football community would return with the full card of three matches every week.

[Tom Wills]

This thread often returns to the "good ol days" of SFL and SFA with, from what I read, no evidence other than reminiscing.

IMO opinion the single team divisionalism system is best structure of AFL in Australia!

This stucture could be a saviour to the league imbalances in major and minor competitions in the football heartland states where 2 or 3 team in the major competition struggle and the 2 or 3 teams dominate the minor league - with reserves all over the place. The single team division would see players stay at a major league team but be happy to play in the Division 1 comp against the strongest minor league teams vs. leave the major league team and go to the minor league team. aka the Sydney Structure. It would also encourage stronger teams to field more teams again aka Sydney.

In summary - look at how great the current divisionalism is, not the problems.

[Mug Punter]

This thread often returns to the "good ol days" of SFL and SFA with, from what I read, no evidence other than reminiscing.

IMO opinion the single team divisionalism system is best structure of AFL in Australia!

This stucture could be a saviour to the league imbalances in major and minor competitions in the football heartland states where 2 or 3 team in the major competition struggle and the 2 or 3 teams dominate the minor league - with reserves all over the place. The single team division would see players stay at a major league team but be happy to play in the Division 1 comp against the strongest minor league teams vs. leave the major league team and go to the minor league team. aka the Sydney Structure. It would also encourage stronger teams to field more teams again aka Sydney.

In summary - look at how great the current divisionalism is, not the problems.

You're joking aren't you kid, what an arrogant patronising post, so we at the NSWAFL have it right and the rest of Australia have it all wrong. All those silly leagues intestate like the VAFA who just can't get it right. All the decades and generations and they've had it wrong the whole time? Who would have thought....

Yes, sometimes teams will struggle in a two team comp. Your solution, in your Gen Y world where every kid gets a prize, is to rejig the comp so no team cops a thrashing. Absolute rubbish, teams will struggle in a club based structure - they do in AFL too FFS. It's called sport, some teams get flogged from time to time. And most clubs rebuild and learn from this character building experience. As long as the clubs that want an exit strategy have one, and the divisionalised comps will provide that, then having a club based structrure provides no isses.

You bag the SFL and SFA days but clearly have no experience of them. They weren't perfect that's for sure - the lack of a rebuild option was a real problem and it's why lower level divisionalisation is good. How Hawkesbury survived all those bleak seasons is a tribute to them. But then again look at the Mac Uni team of the late 90s, the only team to ever win a genuine threepeat at the SFA level (all against your mod I'll add). They were rubbish, total rubbish, but they rebuilt and had great success - I doubt they'd have had that if they'd just said "OK, we're not very good, let's just go and find a comp where we fit in".

Sport can be hard but your soft solutions to the nasty realities of sport (e.g. getting spanked from time to time) is quite sad really.

That SFA comp was a fiercely fought comp with some really bitter nasty rivalries (St Ives v Manly, Sydney Uni v UNSW, Baulko v Balmain) and it thrived at club level. It had some good young players and plenty of old gadr nuts from the SFL that didn't mind handing a few out either.Unlike today IT WAS A PROPER FOOTBALL COMP You can't get that when you're spread to the four corners. The current comp just lacks that character and it's immensely poorer for it. Maybe if you came from a proper football background rather than the Sydney Uni cr?che you'd understand.....

It has a place at the lower levels for sure because the bottom teams at the SFA had nowhere else to go and had to just bend over and cop merciless hammerings and clubs folded because of this. Divisionalisation works for these clubs and nobody is suggesting that it should be scrapped completely. And as you quite correctly state it allows clubs to quickly be able to add new teams and find a home for them, another problem in the old system as you could only field two teams and kids just were lost to the sport. And divisionalisation also allows and promotes the creation of new clubs - I doubts Randwick would have formed in the old world and I'd like to see more new clubs. So no one is bagging it but it is na?ve to suggest that it is appropriate at the top level.

But it has a lack of cohesion and it massively stretches the resources of clubs and it is unfairly geared towards the benefits of the Prem Div clubs. A club like a Sutherland or Mac Uni can find three senior teams being at three grounds, how can that be good for club culture. And it's good to see the Under age teams playing at the same ground as their senior sides.

Get a hybrid model up and running that has good solid club based comps at the old SFL/SFA levels and have three or four divisional based comps below. Surely that will have the best if both worlds.

What suits Sydney Uni isn't always what is best for everyone else you know....

[Pekay]

Hawkesbury only survived due to a fresh influx of players every year......they probably had no idea about the previous years results! Good thing the internet wasn't around back then.

[cos789]

In WA you have the Amateurs who have single teams in divisions and the Sunday League which has a permanent four team structure. The Sunday League teams coming from semi-pro background have the facilities and depend on home games across league, reserves and colts. Their fourth team, playing on Saturdays has morphed into a standalone competition. Undoubedly some big Amateur clubs would benefit from a traditional structure wrt to home game income.
There is no one perfect structure. The closest would be a hybrid structure with in built flexibility.
Flexibility requires executive decisions and that process tends to be questioned by some aspirants.
Sydney is a complex issue. Transport, proximity, the number and strength of clubs and development all play a role.

[Mug Punter]

In WA you have the Amateurs who have single teams in divisions and the Sunday League which has a permanent four team structure. The Sunday League teams coming from semi-pro background have the facilities and depend on home games across league, reserves and colts. Their fourth team, playing on Saturdays has morphed into a standalone competition. Undoubedly some big Amateur clubs would benefit from a traditional structure wrt to home game income.
There is no one perfect structure. The closest would be a hybrid structure with in built flexibility.
Flexibility requires executive decisions and that process tends to be questioned by some aspirants.
Sydney is a complex issue. Transport, proximity, the number and strength of clubs and development all play a role.

Precisely! I don't think anyone is saying a degree of flexibility isn't required I've been advocating a hybrid structure for years now. If the game was able to grow it would be wonderful if there were some district based comps as well. At the moment there isn't anywhere near the depth.

And nobody is saying the divisionalisation hasn't had some good outcomes. But surely NSW's premier club comp, I believe two premier comps but surely at least SFL, should be based on the traditional structure (three teams, two clubs, home and away, club championships etc etc) rather than some numpty concept of "Oooh, North Shore's reserves are a bit weak this year, I'd hate to see the darlings get beaten to badly by those horrible men at Pennant Hills, let's put them back down to play against Camden that will make them feel better" approach.....

Just my humble opinion of course.

[Tom Wills]

Your solution, in your Gen Y world where every kid gets a prize, is to rejig the comp so no team cops a thrashing.
You bag the SFL and SFA days but clearly have no experience of them.
Maybe if you came from a proper football background rather than the Sydney Uni cr?che you'd understand.....
What suits Sydney Uni isn't always what is best for everyone else you know....

MP I like your passion, but it is passion without evidence and lots of anecdotes about how things would be better - but you refuse to look at the strengths of the current single team divisionalisation structure.

But what i dont like are your insulting assertions, which are wrong. FYI I have no association with Sydney Uni (but admire their club), I have played in the SFA and SFL, I am not from Sydney and played metro and country footy in 3 states of Australia. If anyone on RWO online has connections with country football in Australia they would know it it is in trouble - talk to those involved in those clubs. IMO the single team divisional structure could be a solution.

MP what about reposting with passion AND facts and LESS insults (unless true)

[cos789]

MP I like your passion, but it is passion without evidence and lots of anecdotes about how things would be better

It's not that difficult to observe. The AFL, state and country leagues have a traditional structure. (Country has no choice most times)
Just about all of the clubs in these leagues depend on the home ground large crowd scenario for viability.
The permanency evokes confidence and allows planning.
Players are better served if they start with colts and work their way up in the club structure.
Also there is an amount of prestige associated with a long standing league.
IMO every large entity should aspire to a traditional league setup as it's flagship.

Divisional structures obviously are much better at managing demographics and the finances of small clubs.
However it's far from the perfect panacea. A "traditional" Sunday League team wanted to "downgrade" to amateurs but the WAAFL said they'd have to start at the bottom and work up instead of slotting into 'A' grade. Of course the club lost all it's players and promptly failed.

A hybrid system whereby some very strong clubs with an excess of teams for a traditional league is desirable.
Flexibility is desirable whereby clubs can form partnerships.
Promotion and relegation works well in theory but it's not without some drawbacks.

[Jupiter]

It's not that difficult to observe. The AFL, state and country leagues have a traditional structure. (Country has no choice most times)
Just about all of the clubs in these leagues depend on the home ground large crowd scenario for viability.
The permanency evokes confidence and allows planning.
Players are better served if they start with colts and work their way up in the club structure.
Also there is an amount of prestige associated with a long standing league.
IMO every large entity should aspire to a traditional league setup as it's flagship.

Divisional structures obviously are much better at managing demographics and the finances of small clubs.
However it's far from the perfect panacea. A "traditional" Sunday League team wanted to "downgrade" to amateurs but the WAAFL said they'd have to start at the bottom and work up instead of slotting into 'A' grade. Of course the club lost all it's players and promptly failed.

A hybrid system whereby some very strong clubs with an excess of teams for a traditional league is desirable.
Flexibility is desirable whereby clubs can form partnerships.
Promotion and relegation works well in theory but it's not without some drawbacks.

Can we agree Sydney needs a fit for purpose structure = flexibility built in with promo/reg and stand alone lower divisions but where possible some Sen, Res, youth club based divisions. I am not saying constantly tweak but I agree with the posters here who say its time to solidify some of what we have learnt over the last several years from complete divisionalisation - for football, financial and code development reasons, a hybrid is worth a shot. Lets not be afraid of change like for years when no one could bear the thought of promo/relegation mostly simply for fear of change/unknown. We are a Philistine footy state, we can't afford to sit on our hands ever.

[cos789]

Can we agree Sydney needs a fit for purpose structure = flexibility built in with promo/reg and stand alone lower divisions but where possible some Sen, Res, youth club based divisions. I am not saying constantly tweak but I agree with the posters here who say its time to solidify some of what we have learnt over the last several years from complete divisionalisation - for football, financial and code development reasons, a hybrid is worth a shot. Lets not be afraid of change like for years when no one could bear the thought of promo/relegation mostly simply for fear of change/unknown. We are a Philistine footy state, we can't afford to sit on our hands ever.

Totally agree and could I suggest that only a few clubs would "qualify" for a league-reserves-colts style structure.