RWO Game Day Thread - Round 8 - 28th-29th May

**mrns** · 30 May 2021, 11:29 AM

three goaless teams in the mens reserves

**saviour01** · 30 May 2021, 05:22 PM

Nah Manly got one at the end.

51 points combined by the 5 losing teams. 666 for the 5 winning teams.

**Tom Wills** · 30 May 2021, 10:13 PM

Sydney Uni played with max points at 42 v Camden at 28
Easts played with max points at 42
North Shore played with 39 points against the supposed money club of Wests at 37 points

Sydney AFL.... grow some and reduce the top team players points - 34 sounds good .... the same as the Canberra Clubs

**Jupiter** · 1 June 2021, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Tom Wills

Sydney Uni played with max points at 42 v Camden at 28
Easts played with max points at 42
North Shore played with 39 points against the supposed money club of Wests at 37 points

Sydney AFL.... grow some and reduce the top team players points - 34 sounds good .... the same as the Canberra Clubs

This is absolute nonsense Tom and has no legs whatsoever - got me if you are Trolling... You might as well propose no one other than a person born in Sydney can play Premier Division - unless you have a plan to incentivize all the lads who move into the East, Inner City and Nth Shore to get in your bus to go train and play at Camden, Manly currently etc, or maybe let the Bats have 1000 points, that'd be cool too. Have a look at the reserves scores, your plan would only reduce the standard of Premier Division and push 1s players into 2s and 3s most likely, where I saw the blowouts are already a bit embarrassing. Sydney isn't Canberra, its far more dispersed and large. As others here have said, some clubs have developed further than others and they seem to be keeping up standards on and off field - geography , good admin and other factors help - some think money only but that can't be it alone we know or there would be a salary cap not a points system right? I think its a bit like when divisionalisation finally came in at the urging of not many - lets not be precious about our divisions and think they are set in stone forever, a better strategy is to maintain pathways for players and clubs in the system and let merit and higher standards not lower ones be the guidepost. Relegate a few clubs for a few years if you are so worried, no big deal and they can build up slowly without holding others back. As ever in Sydney Clubs ought to cooperate a lot more not tear each other down and try to hold each other back.

**bomber.** · 3 June 2021, 12:29 AM

[QUOTE=Tom Wills;819392]Sydney Uni played with max points at 42 v Camden at 28
Easts played with max points at 42
North Shore played with 39 points against the supposed money club of Wests at 37 points

Sydney AFL.... grow some and reduce the top team players points - 34 sounds good .... the same as the Canberra Clubs[/QUOTE

Tom, the points systems don’t have the same allocations per player between leagues. The Canberra system is pretty much 1 point lower per category.

So if you do apples for apples, NS as an example played off a Canberra equivalent of 34 last weekend.

Recruits aren’t the issue Tom.

The more people look for a simple solution in recruits/points. The more they miss the point.

There aren’t as many recruits as people think either. Most players on points are players moving to Sydney and wanting to play. A few moving within Sydney and then the occasional actual recruit.

The top 5 men’s Prems and reserves teams are from the same clubs. The imbalance in Prems has been discussed, but the winning reserves teams last weekend scored 665 points and the losing 5 scored 51. 98 goals to 6.

The issue there isn’t recruits. At NS for example 39 of the 44 who played Prems and reserves last week are 1 point players. Every reserves player would be 1 point. The thirds are alright too. So if the players on points were taken out, the standard would come down slightly, but the outcome wouldn’t change.

Recruits and therefore money, might influence things slightly, but they aren’t the root cause.

The root causes are actually players from Sydney, how they’re now being developed and coached and where they’re being generated.

It isn’t possible to fix the competition imbalance in Sydney with either points or salary caps. The only method that can be effective in the short term is competition structure.

In the medium term even that won’t be effective, unless we develop more players and better coaching depth, particularly in the western half of Sydney.

What’s the actual solution. Change the competition structure now, then expand and improve the quality of academy programs, as well as coaching depth, particularly in western Sydney.

If the AFL is going get brave and actually address the issue, it will need to look a bit like that.

Can’t wait for the usual knobs to jump on with the usual crap about recruits, money, pathways etc etc. Keep missing the point if you like, but if your clubs keep doing that the gap is going to get bigger.

**Nuttsy** · 3 June 2021, 09:16 AM

[QUOTE=bomber.;819708]

Originally posted by Tom Wills

Sydney Uni played with max points at 42 v Camden at 28
Easts played with max points at 42
North Shore played with 39 points against the supposed money club of Wests at 37 points

Sydney AFL.... grow some and reduce the top team players points - 34 sounds good .... the same as the Canberra Clubs[/QUOTE

Tom, the points systems don’t have the same allocations per player between leagues. The Canberra system is pretty much 1 point lower per category.

So if you do apples for apples, NS as an example played off a Canberra equivalent of 34 last weekend.

Recruits aren’t the issue Tom.

The more people look for a simple solution in recruits/points. The more they miss the point.

There aren’t as many recruits as people think either. Most players on points are players moving to Sydney and wanting to play. A few moving within Sydney and then the occasional actual recruit.

The top 5 men’s Prems and reserves teams are from the same clubs. The imbalance in Prems has been discussed, but the winning reserves teams last weekend scored 665 points and the losing 5 scored 51. 98 goals to 6.

The issue there isn’t recruits. At NS for example 39 of the 44 who played Prems and reserves last week are 1 point players. Every reserves player would be 1 point. The thirds are alright too. So if the players on points were taken out, the standard would come down slightly, but the outcome wouldn’t change.

Recruits and therefore money, might influence things slightly, but they aren’t the root cause.

The root causes are actually players from Sydney, how they’re now being developed and coached and where they’re being generated.

It isn’t possible to fix the competition imbalance in Sydney with either points or salary caps. The only method that can be effective in the short term is competition structure.

In the medium term even that won’t be effective, unless we develop more players and better coaching depth, particularly in the western half of Sydney.

What’s the actual solution. Change the competition structure now, then expand and improve the quality of academy programs, as well as coaching depth, particularly in western Sydney.

If the AFL is going get brave and actually address the issue, it will need to look a bit like that.

Can’t wait for the usual knobs to jump on with the usual crap about recruits, money, pathways etc etc. Keep missing the point if you like, but if your clubs keep doing that the gap is going to get bigger.

Your right, the problem is at the Junior level not the Senior level. For Example Camdens Senior Coach would be the equivalent of Most if not All of the other Premier Div Coaches. The problem is the Junior Coaching at most clubs and as you said the Academy. For Example the coaches actually running the academy programs have little to no real experience. Not there fault at all that they have been put in charge but seriously the people appointing them need to have a good hard look at it. I as well as many other parents i know, including a former AFL listed player who's son made the state side recently, have knocked back the offer to put our kids in the academy, especially at a cost of $500 per kid to have less qualified coaching then they get at their junior club.

Until the AFL gets serious about development, including combining the Western Sydney and Harbour Junior competitions at competitive ages, the better the quality of footballers coming through to the senior ranks you will then see. Especially out west

**Tom Wills** · 3 June 2021, 01:04 PM

[QUOTERecruits aren’t the issue Tom.[/QUOTE]

Firstly recruits are "an" issue - if the top clubs, with the best junior pathways, are at max PPS points or near max points they are recruiting. The PPS should be lowered to stop the already strong clubs recruiting. That's what is there for.
Secondly Jupiter "You might as well propose no one other than a person born in Sydney can play Premier Division" - incorrect - travel to Wests, Manly, St George (relative close to the CBD) or travel to Camden, Pennant Hills, East Coast - all who have plenty of points
Thirdly Jupiter " some clubs have developed further" - CBD location (great for players relocating to Sydney), Universtity Support, Excellent Junior pathways, business and corporate support - how many free kicks do East, Syd Uni and NS want. The PPS is designed to provide some equalisation in a very unbalanced market.
Fourthly "The root causes are actually players from Sydney, how they’re now being developed and coached and where they’re being generated." The best clubs have the best junior pathway - don't overextend how great coaches, development programs are. Tell me a club with a strong junior pathway that isn't successful.

Maybe a new structure is a / the solution but an honest look at why some clubs are successful would be a welcome change.

**Jupiter** · 3 June 2021, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Tom Wills

[QUOTERecruits aren’t the issue Tom.

Firstly recruits are "an" issue - if the top clubs, with the best junior pathways, are at max PPS points or near max points they are recruiting. The PPS should be lowered to stop the already strong clubs recruiting. That's what is there for.
Secondly Jupiter "You might as well propose no one other than a person born in Sydney can play Premier Division" - incorrect - travel to Wests, Manly, St George (relative close to the CBD) or travel to Camden, Pennant Hills, East Coast - all who have plenty of points
Thirdly Jupiter " some clubs have developed further" - CBD location (great for players relocating to Sydney), Universtity Support, Excellent Junior pathways, business and corporate support - how many free kicks do East, Syd Uni and NS want. The PPS is designed to provide some equalisation in a very unbalanced market.
Fourthly "The root causes are actually players from Sydney, how they’re now being developed and coached and where they’re being generated." The best clubs have the best junior pathway - don't overextend how great coaches, development programs are. Tell me a club with a strong junior pathway that isn't successful.

Maybe a new structure is a / the solution but an honest look at why some clubs are successful would be a welcome change.[/QUOTE]

Hey Tom, agree with the first part of your final sentence only, disagree with the rest strongly and your entire policy direction on points. Maybe the Bombers or say the Bulldogs President and C'tee should be seconded to some of the Clubs you think need to steal players...that WOULD make a difference over time.

**Tom Wills** · 3 June 2021, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Jupiter

Maybe the Bombers or say the Bulldogs President and C'tee should be seconded to some of the Clubs you think need to steal players...that WOULD make a difference over time.

Jupiter, I don't know your club connection but what an insulting, ignorant and condescending comment to think that sending the Bulldogs committee to Camden / East Coast / Wests or Manly (the bottom 4 teams on the ladder at this point in time) is the answer. You are obviously a self-entitled Eastern Suburbs boy who thinks everyone else in our West just needs to work harder. Maybe a change of name from Jupiter to Uranus is appropriate.

**mrns** · 3 June 2021, 03:20 PM

Seems like we have an issue with using quote's today!

If junior clubs are seen as the foundation of the strong clubs, it would be interesting to see if Sydney AFL would explore amalgamation between junior/senior clubs into single entities/brands in some cases. Give the administrators of senior clubs direct responsibility for executing the growth and development grass roots football.

As a kid you wouldn't picture yourself from the Maroubra Saints playing Senior footy for any PD team in the Eastern Suburbs but how could we condition that earlier? We all know that it is a great privileged to be represent your club in a premier division game. I think it'd be great for establishing some loyalty to a brand from an early age.

I know Pennant Hills juniors is also the branded as the Demons. Are they separate or same entity?

**Jupiter** · 3 June 2021, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Tom Wills

Jupiter, I don't know your club connection but what an insulting, ignorant and condescending comment to think that sending the Bulldogs committee to Camden / East Coast / Wests or Manly (the bottom 4 teams on the ladder at this point in time) is the answer. You are obviously a self-entitled Eastern Suburbs boy who thinks everyone else in our West just needs to work harder. Maybe a change of name from Jupiter to Uranus is appropriate.

I apologise if I've offended Tom (or any posters), not my intention, no need to fire up, I'm too old for that with 30 plus years across more than one club/league in NSW and interstate. I only participate here out of interest in the code's development in Sydney. There are great volunteers at all clubs all over Sydney, I'm not criticizing anyone specifically. Maybe clumsily made, but my point was to try to get you to realise that off field factors are far more important than a player being directed here or there [unsuccessfully probably] by the league - that was the point of my crazy hypothetical to communicate that it aint all luck Tom. I will sign off on this debate now given your last post.

**Nuttsy** · 3 June 2021, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by mrns

Seems like we have an issue with using quote's today!

If junior clubs are seen as the foundation of the strong clubs, it would be interesting to see if Sydney AFL would explore amalgamation between junior/senior clubs into single entities/brands in some cases. Give the administrators of senior clubs direct responsibility for executing the growth and development grass roots football.

As a kid you wouldn't picture yourself from the Maroubra Saints playing Senior footy for any PD team in the Eastern Suburbs but how could we condition that earlier? We all know that it is a great privileged to be represent your club in a premier division game. I think it'd be great for establishing some loyalty to a brand from an early age.

I know Pennant Hills juniors is also the branded as the Demons. Are they separate or same entity?

If the Senior club in your area was engaged and doing work to help your junior club and creating a connection of course kid's will want to play for them one day

**Coastal Boy** · 3 June 2021, 09:28 PM

The main issue (the way I see it) is that the concept of all clubs being able to start each season on an even keel is somewhat flawed.

1) the junior base participation numbers within each clubs pathway are not identical.
2) interstate talented players who move to Sydney (for work) will mostly stick close to the CBD which gives clubs in this region better access to these classier players.

I am sure there are many other factors as well.
The result is what we see....a lopsided competition. Fixing this would require a lot of thought and input from all. Is it even possible? I’d say maybe not.

**Tom Wills** · 4 June 2021, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Coastal Boy

The main issue (the way I see it) is that the concept of all clubs being able to start each season on an even keel is somewhat flawed.

Great comment Coastal Boy - the environment in Sydney is very uneven. If we were all to accept that as the reality there is more likely to be a collaborative solution (and yes that may be a new comp or structure).

P.S. I think time to close this conversation down.

RWO Game Day Thread - Round 8 - 28th-29th May

RWO Game Day Thread - Round 8 - 28th-29th May

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