The Great Sydney balls-up

[Mike_B]

Article

Now I still don't know how much attention I'd pay to a Caroline Wilson article, but if this one is on the money, seems there is a huge divide between opinions at the Swans and the AFL as to how best to promote the game in Sydney.

Someone (it could be on either side) needs to pull their head out of the sand, be willing to compromise and put the game ahead of everything else, and forget about who should do what and who shouldn't. Just do what it takes to get the best result for the growth of the game in Sydney!

[goswannie14]

Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by Mike_B
Article

Now I still don't know how much attention I'd pay to a Caroline Wilson article, but if this one is on the money, seems there is a huge divide between opinions at the Swans and the AFL as to how best to promote the game in Sydney.

Someone (it could be on either side) needs to pull their head out of the sand, be willing to compromise and put the game ahead of everything else, and forget about who should do what and who shouldn't. Just do what it takes to get the best result for the growth of the game in Sydney!

There are two points that come out of that IMO,
1) Demetriou wants to be the boss and tell everyone what to do in the AFL.
2)The AFL is still looking for the opportunity to relocate a second team into Sydney.

It has been a long held belief amongst many Melbourne based supporters of all teams that the second team scenario would not happen until the Swans had won a premiership. That has now happened, so will the suspicions be fulfilled? Only time will tell, but cynics like me have often thought that one reason Footscray changed their name was so that eventually they could be the Western Bulldogs in Sydney.

[Big Al]

Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by goswannie14
There are two points that come out of that IMO,
1) Demetriou wants to be the boss and tell everyone what to do in the AFL.
2)The AFL is still looking for the opportunity to relocate a second team into Sydney.

It has been a long held belief amongst many Melbourne based supporters of all teams that the second team scenario would not happen until the Swans had won a premiership. That has now happened, so will the suspicions be fulfilled? Only time will tell, but cynics like me have often thought that one reason Footscray changed their name was so that eventually they could be the Western Bulldogs in Sydney.

Its quite incredible that the AFL still does not understand the market up here. The Swans brand IS AFL in Sydney. Most people do not care for AFL when the Swans are not involved.TV ratings are proof of this.

Remember as well the Swans aren't exactly kicking a lot of financial goals. Yes they made a modest profit this year and will probably reap a greater benefit this year but you would expect a one town team in the largest city in the country would be a financial powerhouse. The fact that it is not should give the AFL the idea that Aussie Rules still has a long way to go before reaching the point where a second team could survive.

The Sydney market is now even tougher now that the A League has had some success after the euphoria of the World Cup qualification. Also Rugby League has had a massive 2005 where attendence and TV Ratings records were created.

My suggestion to the AFL is that it should be listening to the Swans because they are in the position to know what is required up here to survive. The AFL has a brilliant opportunity to take advantage of the Swans success but if they do not work with the Swans I fear that any advantage will be lost.

[liz]

Re: Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by Big Al

My suggestion to the AFL is that it should be listening to the Swans

Demetriou and Anderson listen to no man. They do not need to listen to anyone. They are wise beyond mere mortals' comprehension. They know all there is to know.

[j s]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by liz
Demetriou and Anderson listen to no man. They do not need to listen to anyone. They are wise beyond mere mortals' comprehension. They know all there is to know.

....especially about what constitutes a winning playing style!

[katie-scarlett]

Re: Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by Big Al
Its quite incredible that the AFL still does not understand the market up here. The Swans brand IS AFL in Sydney.

And vice versa, AFL in Sydney IS the Swans.

[goswannie14]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by katie-scarlett
And vice versa, AFL in Sydney IS the Swans.

I think that in the long term, that is what they want to avoid, otherwise it is going to be hard for a second team to get any support in Sydney.

[katie-scarlett]

when they say that the AFL wants to relocate a 2nd team to Sydney.. which team are they thinking of?

[goswannie14]

Originally posted by katie-scarlett
when they say that the AFL wants to relocate a 2nd team to Sydney.. which team are they thinking of?

That's the million dollar question. There is nothing official but it is what most people expect will happen. Melbourne can't continue to support 9 teams financially indefinitely.

The few clubs that are struggling financially are Kangaroos and Bulldogs, but you could also put Carlton into that mix too.

[j s]

Originally posted by goswannie14
The few clubs that are struggling financially are Kangaroos and Bulldogs, but you could also put Carlton into that mix too.

Maybe Eddie will bring the Pies with him?

[SimonH]

Originally posted by goswannie14
That's the million dollar question. There is nothing official but it is what most people expect will happen. Melbourne can't continue to support 9 teams financially indefinitely.

The few clubs that are struggling financially are Kangaroos and Bulldogs, but you could also put Carlton into that mix too.

The problem is that after the disastrous Kangaroos in Sydney putsch of the late 90s/early 2000s, surely even the AFL administration would be aware of what's obvious to all Sydneysiders: if you just turn up and say 'We're here! Love us!', you can expect to regularly get fewer than 10,000 paying customers to your games. If you reckon you can survive on that for 10 years while you build up loyalty and a fan-base, then good luck to you.

Getting kids to play AFL is crucial; and as the target market is about 7 years old, they're what marketing people call 'early adopters'. But getting paying, passionate supporters to go to [insert name of club]'s games is another thing entirely (and supporters need to be passionate to take 4 hours out of their life and shell out substantial sums of cash). There's a big difference between developing real fans of AFL in Sydney, and the default position of 'support' for the Swans that hundreds of thousands (possibly over a million) Sydneysiders have: 'I'll back 'em, especially in the finals, because I like the spectacle of any big sporting event, and I'd rather see a Sydney team knock off a Melbourne one any day; but I don't care much about the code and I'd only pay to see a game once in a blue moon if a mate invited me'. On current levels of development, it will be at least 20 years before there are enough of the first category to warrant a 2nd team in Sydney.

If the AFL wants to move a side up, even as a half-and-half proposition, in the next 5 to 10 years, it will have to do so with its eyes wide open, knowing that it will have to cop losses of tens of millions for many years, before the club even approaches break-even. To start to win the hearts and minds of western Sydney, you need an actual, bricks-and-mortar club there. A fan-base of supporters can't develop if they don't have a place they can gravitate to, to meet each other and see the players after the game. People will think it's just another marketing-contingent fly-by-night operation otherwise. That's a significant upfront cost, albeit it can ultimately become a big moneyspinner like most NRL teams' Leagues Clubs are.

I can see where the AFL is coming from, i.e. 'the more success the Swans have, the more media they get and the more Sydneysiders get it in stuck in their heads that the Swans are the AFL in Sydney'. But they should have thought of that before they entered into a corrupt pact with all umpires, players, tribunal members and the weather gods to let Sydney win the 2005 premiership.

[Thunder Shaker]

Originally posted by goswannie14
The few clubs that are struggling financially are Kangaroos and Bulldogs, but you could also put Carlton into that mix too.

Carlton relocating to Sydney for financial reasons? How ironic that would be.

[timthefish]

short version

1. kangaroos to canberra full time
2. development of small sydney/canberra comp with local teams
3. build up western sydney club
4. move doggies in amalgamation

(kangaroos and doggies may not be the only teams suitable but i think they are the stand-out options. carlton will rise again.)

long version

i look forward to the presence of a second team in sydney. footy in sydney every weekend and derbys twice a year. awesome. while my heart will be forever with the swans, i'd commit to three years membership of the second team just to help ensure the growth of the code in this city.

there's a lot of footy being played in western sydney with competative teams being fielded in the seniors and juniors by cambelltown and nor-west jets. the path, however, should be a slow one and procede along these lines. essentially, i believe a second team in sydney should follow a team in canberra. the kangaroos are the obvious team to push in canberra and i think it is time for the afl to really put the hammer down there.

the roos should relocate in full and receive massive financial backing and a favourable match draw so they play 8 away in melbourne and get two swans matches a year (one sydney, one canberra). this means we miss out on the odd melbourne away match which i know will annoy melbourne based supporters but this change is inevitable if the expansion of the league involves loss of melbourne clubs.

they get new facilities into the deal and plans are drawn up for a 35,000-40,000 seat afl stadium that will also become the home ground of the kangaroos reserves in the canberra comp and be the ground for most finals in that comp including the granny. call it the capital stadium or something. make do with manuka for the time being. also consider a priority pick system from the canberra comp and other such sweeteners. the immediate benefit to the swans will be that their reserves will be playing more frequently against a professional outfit. this is when things really start looking up for western sydney.

rationalise the sydney and canberra comps to form a single top-shelf comp with about eight teams including the kangaroos and swans reserves, two western sydney, another eastern sydney and three more from canberra. play each local team 3 times and each team from the other city twice with maybe a fiddle so that the swans and roos reserves play each other 4 times. 17 match season + finals. travel four times interstate in the home + away season.

this would take a lot to organise and may require cooperation on behalf of a number of local clubs. for example maybe Cambelltown and Nor-West could recruit smaller clubs for assistance and the fourth sydney team could be sourced from players from (say) Sydney Uni, UTS and UNSW-ES. Players would kill to be in such a comp playing against genuine AFL players and be full of dreams of being "noticed". it might entice the odd decent player knocking around in newcastle, wollongong or the central coast.

There would be massive problems within this scheme and a couple of clubs would probably get belted from season start to end. There would need to be an upgrade of a number of ovals in the cities and some of those in sydney would still be too small. It would also require large inputs of money from the afl to cover expenses such as travel, ground improvement and perhaps some player-payments but it would be far more attractive to sponsership and advertising than the present set-up. give it a push on fox-footy too. do something radical like host the entire AFL preseason cup on the improved grounds.

give this a few years and develop a big rivalry between the teams from the western suburbs and teams from the east of sydney. then relocate the bulldogs in an amalgamation and use the local clubs name as at least part of the new clubs name. give it a strong local western sydney identity. there's another professional ressies team in the nsw comp. think about expanding it to include newcastle and wollongong teams.

[satchmopugdog]

Wow..it is great to see someone with a vision. I am one of those people who can only think small. You have blown me away. I haven't analysed your proposal in detail but at least you're prepared to put something out there. I hope someone BIG gets to read this.

[liz]

Originally posted by SimonH
Getting kids to play AFL is crucial; and as the target market is about 7 years old, they're what marketing people call 'early adopters'.

Getting 7 year old kids to play AFL doesn't seem to be very hard. Right from 1996 onwards, when the first GF appearance marked the start of the Swans starting to be taken seriously by Sydney, the AFL has reported consistent growth in Auskick numbers in the Greater Sydney region. One would expect that the premiership will create a spike in those participating.

But the AFL has been very slow off the mark in translating interest at junior level to ongoing opportunities to play AFL throughout teenage years. Only last year we read about Chris Langford's son not being able to find a school in Sydney where he could play AFL.

Small steps are being made in the right direction, with a small number of the Public schools now agreeing to field teams in a "Lightening Premiership" competition. But there is still a huge way to go for AFL to become accepted within the school system, even as a minority sport.

The kids who took up Auskick in the mid-nineties should now be of draftable age. And yet you can still count the number of NSW (note - statewide, not even just GS) kids drafted each year on one finger. That has got to register as a huge opportunity lost for the AFL.

The AFL has announced a $9m package to promote the game up here. Surely they must invest in football at school level and in recreational grounds around the city to make it as easy as possible for young kids to keep playing AFL as they get older, if they so desire. We won't see the effects for another decade, but if you get kids and young adults truly interested in the game, at some point within our lifetimes, there may be enough support to consider another game up here.

They have also got to get the rest of the clubs to take the NSW apprentice scheme seriously. Sheedy doesn't seem to mind having two Japanese youths training with his squad in the interests of developing the game. Yet most clubs seem to have reacted in a very lukewarm way to the idea of providing kids from the "other side of the Murray" with a pathway for developing. The aim may not be for them to graduate on a large scale to the AFL - at least not at first. But even if the apprenticeship scheme keeps talented teenagers interested in the game for longer, develops their skills, and then they come back to the SFL, it is a step in the right direction.