The Great Sydney balls-up

[timthefish]

it isn't necessarily about raw population numbers. canberra may only have 339,000 people but geelong is doing fine on 130,000.

afl is part of the sporting culture in canberra and has been since it was established. admittedly not to the extent found in geelong and the afl has let things slip away a lot in the last twenty years but it is still more a matter of participation rather than population. participation in sydney is crap, particularly at the teen level as liz has pointed out.

i don't know anything at all about the situation in canberra regarding junior participation, but there must be a good reason we're sending our reserves down the hume highway to play in their competition.

by the way, i'm not arguing against the next development being anywhere else in australia. i'm simply arguing that the path to western sydney (and there is no market there at present) can be facillitated through strengthening the foothold in canberra.

[timthefish]

Originally posted by mocaholic
With that, it is noted that 'North Melbourne' and 'Footscray' no longer (effectively) exist!

i never believed for a second that their respective name change was each a strategy to strengthen their ties in the greater melbourne population by being more generic. they can huff and puff about their local ties and development agreements down at whitten oval and arden st. as much as they like. i'm convinced each club is ready to move as soon as the time is right.

[floppinab]

Firstly it's interesting Wilson had 3 cracks at this story over the previous week and half, each one adding a little bit more than the first.
If Sydney want to drip feed her to get the message out to the public that's fine but I question a little bit their motives for doing so. If their desire really is to improve the game in Sydney I think public with this sort of stuff is only going to reduce the view of AFL in the publics mind. Chest beating isn't going to help.

Roos quotes in these articles IMO don't help one bit. They come across as being one dimensional and dont' help the cause.

"I reckon it's pretty simple," Roos said. "If the cost of renting grounds to play junior football on Sundays has gone up, then the AFL should be paying for that. And stop telling us that Sunday football is hard because of lack of ground availability. Make them available. Junior club footy has to be played on Sundays so it doesn't clash with school sport.

"My family is as AFL as you can get. (Roos' sons) Dylan and Tyler play for the (East Sydney) Bulldogs and they love it. But it's a chore here. Even for us, it would make our lives so much easier if our boys just pulled out of footy."

Firstly not everybody lives in the Eastern Suburbs and sends their kids to private schools Paul. Plenty go the public schools and aren't all that happy to have their weekends completely tied up with kids sport. One association has gone to Sunday junior footy, that's great. It's no co-incidence that it's probably the one that co-incides with the highest level of private schooling. It certainly may and most likely doesn't suit the rest.

Secondly a parent reading Paul Roos suggesting he is going to pull his kids out of footy because it's too hard isn't really going to enamore that parent to encourage their kids to play. There is plenty involved in junior footy that can't believe this quote came from Roos. By all means have your war with the AFL but if you want to help the situation keep this sort of stuff out of the papers.

tim there isn't that much footy being playing in western sydney, north west has seen some growth, west and greater west have gone backwards (lower number of clubs than 5 years ago).

Rationalisation of NSW senior football has been on the table for 10 years and longer. Similarly to the AFL, while the clubs have vested interests to survive they won't agree to sign their death warrants and the status quo remains.

As for riding on the back of the Swans premiership success, thus far it hasn't produced the spike in junior players the AFL was expecting (their stating figure of 25% is a guess and although it's early days it isn't looking as good as anybody has thought, the Tigers and FC definatlely having an impact). I agree with what the Swans have tried to do, the AFL must be bringing them into the picture much more than they are.

Lastly from me, js, Eddie may indeed be bringing the pies, albeit just a tiny bit thereof to Sydney. Stay tuned, we'll be hearing something in a few weeks.

[goswannie14]

Originally posted by timthefish
i never believed for a second that their respective name change was each a strategy to strengthen their ties in the greater melbourne population by being more generic. they can huff and puff about their local ties and development agreements down at whitten oval and arden st. as much as they like. i'm convinced each club is ready to move as soon as the time is right.

That's been the general consensus around Melbourne, particularly as both teams have been trying experimental home games interstate.

[Wazza]

Originally posted by liz
Getting 7 year old kids to play AFL doesn't seem to be very hard.
But the AFL has been very slow off the mark in translating interest at junior level to ongoing opportunities to play AFL throughout teenage years. Only last year we read about Chris Langford's son not being able to find a school in Sydney where he could play AFL.

A couple of good points here, Auskick in Sydney is very successfull but the follow through from the NSW AFL to establish the game at secondary school level has been poorly implemented.

I have been involved in junior coaching and we managed to persuade a promient rugby school to enter a team in the Paul Kelly cup - we organised a training session with NSW AFL all the kids and a few teachers were excited - on the day the AFL did not turn up! The school immediately withdrew all support and we were not allowed to represent them in the Paul Kelly cup - even though we had enough players for 2 teams.

This was funny in way because we still entered but had to play under a different name and I supplied jerseys from our club.

u/14/u16 level very hard to find enough players to fill teams throughout Sydney.

It wont matter where they spend the extra money if they dont get secondary schools to add AFL to there sports programs - it will be wasted.

Cheers

Waz

[floppinab]

Originally posted by Wazza
- we organised a training session with NSW AFL all the kids and a few teachers were excited - on the day the AFL did not turn up!

Waz

To give the AFL a modicum of support things have improved. I mean the $9mill has to bent spent somewhere right because junior clubs don't get a penny. Take a look at these :

http://www.aflnswact.com.au/default.aspx?s=developmentdisplay&aid=103087

There are a lot of extra staff there compared to even last year, let alone a 2 or 3 years ago. And a lot more activity amongst the schools.

[timthefish]

Originally posted by floppinab
tim there isn't that much footy being playing in western sydney, north west has seen some growth, west and greater west have gone backwards (lower number of clubs than 5 years ago).

doesn't surprise me, but i didn't have a clue what the trends were in the west. i think the future in western sydney is a while away from either sprouting its own team or embracing (ie not throwing bottles at) an imported team. this is why i think the next focus in new south wales should be canberra in a manner that may facillitate grass-roots development in sydney.

huge big pile of ifs, maybes an no-ways no matter which way you look at it i reckon.

[Mel]

The Tigers win has really thrown a spanner in the Aussie Rules works in the South West. My nephew and most of his mates follow both the NRL and the AFL. If the Tigers hadn't won last year and continued on in a mediocre fashion in the NRL, interest in Rugby League would have continued to slowly fade. As it is, the kids got caught up in the hype of the winning team and now the young kiddos mention Benji Marshall and Scott Prince in the same sentence as Barry Hall and Nick Davis. Nothing wrong with this, it's great they're so interested in sport, but as far as promoting AFL goes, the Tiges didn't do the AFL any favours by winning last year!

For what it's worth, playing Rugby League did not even enter into my nephew's thoughts - he begged to be signed up to Auskick. Then again, he had no chance since our whole family is AFL-centric. Other kids with parents who grew up with NRL/ARL/Super-League or whatever they were called, may not be steered in the Aussie Rules direction. There are still a lot of people out there who are dead-against AFL and would rather die than have their kids play it

[floppinab]

Originally posted by Mel
The Tigers win has really thrown a spanner in the Aussie Rules works in the South West. My nephew and most of his mates follow both the NRL and the AFL. If the Tigers hadn't won last year and continued on in a mediocre fashion in the NRL, interest in Rugby League would have continued to slowly fade. As it is, the kids got caught up in the hype of the winning team and now the young kiddos mention Benji Marshall and Scott Prince in the same sentence as Barry Hall and Nick Davis.

No doubt about Mel, but just as importantly on the back of it, I reckon the Tigers have just about covered every school between Balmain and Parramatta (from what I have seen, and quite likely a lot more beyond) with a couple of players to each school and a Tigers showbag to just about every kid. The Swans of course won't/can't do anything like this so instead we've got the AFL spending $mill on Developmnt guys running around the schools.
You tell me who will have the most impact, Mr. no-name AFLNSW man or Scotty Prince or Bryce Gibbs!!!!

[Rizzo]

Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by Tuesday
Obviously, you're going to try and bring it all back to the fact that if I agreed (or even disagreed) that I would still support them, you believe you will have been proven correct in saying football = tribalism.

But I am a fan of the sport and not so one eyed for a certain team that I cannot accept change. Realism is necessary, especially in this age where the pocket rules. I also know the chances of such a move are slim to none.

So we agree to disagree.

I'm not really looking to score points, but I am interested in how you harness the kind of loyalty that comes with supporting a team (believe me, if we work out how to bottle it, we'll make a fortune!).

Let me ask another question then...why did the Kangaroos push into the Sydney market fail?

[timthefish]

Re: Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by Rizzo
Let me ask another question then...why did the Kangaroos push into the Sydney market fail?

it was half-assed and they were pretty transparent in their desire for the people of sydney to embrace them before they embraced the city of sydney.

oh, and we enjoyed hating them, hating carey and watching them lose. the special "one-two" graphic that came up on the scoreboard whenever "the king" scored a goal really pissed me off.

[swansrock4eva]

Originally posted by floppinab
Roos quotes in these articles IMO don't help one bit. They come across as being one dimensional and dont' help the cause.

"I reckon it's pretty simple," Roos said. "If the cost of renting grounds to play junior football on Sundays has gone up, then the AFL should be paying for that. And stop telling us that Sunday football is hard because of lack of ground availability. Make them available. Junior club footy has to be played on Sundays so it doesn't clash with school sport.

"My family is as AFL as you can get. (Roos' sons) Dylan and Tyler play for the (East Sydney) Bulldogs and they love it. But it's a chore here. Even for us, it would make our lives so much easier if our boys just pulled out of footy."

Firstly not everybody lives in the Eastern Suburbs and sends their kids to private schools Paul. Plenty go the public schools and aren't all that happy to have their weekends completely tied up with kids sport. One association has gone to Sunday junior footy, that's great. It's no co-incidence that it's probably the one that co-incides with the highest level of private schooling. It certainly may and most likely doesn't suit the rest.

Secondly a parent reading Paul Roos suggesting he is going to pull his kids out of footy because it's too hard isn't really going to enamore that parent to encourage their kids to play. There is plenty involved in junior footy that can't believe this quote came from Roos. By all means have your war with the AFL but if you want to help the situation keep this sort of stuff out of the papers.

tim there isn't that much footy being playing in western sydney, north west has seen some growth, west and greater west have gone backwards (lower number of clubs than 5 years ago).

Rationalisation of NSW senior football has been on the table for 10 years and longer. Similarly to the AFL, while the clubs have vested interests to survive they won't agree to sign their death warrants and the status quo remains.

The simple thing is that at the moment, there is a clash between the private school sports, and trying to get those schools into Aussie Rules is important because they have the potential to provide additional venues for footy, and essentially provide cash for the coffers. Schools such as Riverview, who field an U18s side (and won the comp last year mind you) now have the potential to allow their kids to play multiple sports as they choose, rather than being locked into Aussie Rules. As much as we'd like them to play Aussie Rules only, it's just not going to happen.

But the next problem is that your average local club doesn't have enough support to drum up substantial amounts of cash. Most can keep their heads above water, but beyond that is anyone's guess, and depends on what each club has at their fingertips. Some clubs have lots in terms of cash and facitilities, some have little to none. Go have a look at some points raised on the NSW AFL board - Penrith footy has been messed over this year by the local council, beauracracy and sheer lack of funds - hardly the prime form of promotion we want out that way! And the situation is similar right around Sydney - clubs shifting and changing venues every year due to ground changes, development, destruction etc! If we can get MORE grounds through private schools, I'd rather that than losing grounds because of belligerent councils with vested interests in their own pursuits rather than the greater good of all sport in their area.

[floppinab]

Originally posted by swansrock4eva
The simple thing is that at the moment, there is a clash between the private school sports, and trying to get those schools into Aussie Rules is important because they have the potential to provide additional venues for footy, and essentially provide cash for the coffers. Schools such as Riverview, who field an U18s side (and won the comp last year mind you) now have the potential to allow their kids to play multiple sports as they choose, rather than being locked into Aussie Rules. As much as we'd like them to play Aussie Rules only, it's just not going to happen.

But the next problem is that your average local club doesn't have enough support to drum up substantial amounts of cash. Most can keep their heads above water, but beyond that is anyone's guess, and depends on what each club has at their fingertips. Some clubs have lots in terms of cash and facitilities, some have little to none. Go have a look at some points raised on the NSW AFL board - Penrith footy has been messed over this year by the local council, beauracracy and sheer lack of funds - hardly the prime form of promotion we want out that way! And the situation is similar right around Sydney - clubs shifting and changing venues every year due to ground changes, development, destruction etc! If we can get MORE grounds through private schools, I'd rather that than losing grounds because of belligerent councils with vested interests in their own pursuits rather than the greater good of all sport in their area.

The push by Roos and the Swans to Sunday junior club football is purely driven to try and get those keen sportschildren to play AFL on a Sunday while maintaining school sport committments on a Sat. As I stated it will suit some but not all and the net effect is still to be seen. Although if more schools take up larger scale AFL programs I can't see too many of them allowing external clubs to use their ovals and facilities independantly of the school. It might happen, but I doubt it would on a large enough scale. I am aware of one club that is using an educations institutions facilities and has had a hell of time securing the ground at a reasonable rate for a junior club. They have moved on to a council facility this year.

Yes I read the issues Penrith are having at Dukes. My guess is AFLNSW have all their eggs in the Blacktown basket. Of course that won't be nearly enough and more should be done to maintain what is there already. I am aware of the AFL helping some clubs and facilities around the traps, it'd be disappointing if it wasn't happening at Penrith

[Rizzo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Great Sydney balls-up

Originally posted by timthefish
it was half-assed and they were pretty transparent in their desire for the people of sydney to embrace them before they embraced the city of sydney.

oh, and we enjoyed hating them, hating carey and watching them lose. the special "one-two" graphic that came up on the scoreboard whenever "the king" scored a goal really pissed me off.

Yep, I loved beating the Roos so much more when Carey was playing.

Could have they done a better job? Yes.
Would have they succeeded if they did? I don't think so.

[swansrock4eva]

The big thing was that the way they went about trying to establish support up here was incredibly "in your face" and in some respects almost offensive when you consider how hard the Swans had been working for almost 20 years at that stage to try to build up the market. I remember in the first year they were up here, all the Swans members having to buy tickets through ticketek to the roos "home" match. But we didn't know Ticketek were compiling a massive database of all our details that was then passed on to the Roos, so that when the next opportunity came around, Swans members were hit up with Roos' promotional mailouts etc, and even membership packs. I know a lot of people at the time had the philosophy that if they wanted Roos' stuff, they'd ask the club directly or at their matches up here etc, which is fair enough. My dad held both memberships one year so that he could see more footy, but at no time was he a Roos supporter. But it was just the attitude that the whole club had to "storming the city" almost, and aiming to steal Swans supporters rather than developing a whole new fan base, which at that point in time, they could have done quite well if they'd been willing to put in the effort - the whole of western sydney was virtually untouched by the Swans and would ahve been a prime target for a new club to hit up.