I'm done

[Roadrunner]

They were all equally poor (Ramps Lloyd, Heeney & Paps) - but i'd back them in most times. On the other hand, Rampe is getting on & it's starting to stick out. Jake can be very good or go missing in action. The other 2 are match winners. Both Heeney and Paps were a big part of us even making the GF. They can't do it all.

I'd be playing hardball with the Chad. It's gonna cost whoever wants him. Logan probably missed a chance to get something decent in return, doesn't scream out as someone who's gonna become a star.

We had too many passengers in this game, which is inexplicable in a GF! The players interviewed said preparation was fine so what went so wrong? Logan’s injury reminded me of Sam Reid in 22 and may have had a similar effect, I don’t know. Still scratching my head and I’m sure the coaches don’t get it either. We need more fire power up front- we’ve relied on our midfield and mid sized players for goals but we need a tall who can take a pack mark when the ball is bombed forward, which is inevitably the case far too often with this team. We need to recruit a really good tall- stop flaffing around getting more mids for goodness sake! More firepower up front is needed, like a Charlie Curnow!

[dejavoodoo44]

We had too many passengers in this game, which is inexplicable in a GF! The players interviewed said preparation was fine so what went so wrong? Logan’s injury reminded me of Sam Reid in 22 and may have had a similar effect, I don’t know. Still scratching my head and I’m sure the coaches don’t get it either. We need more fire power up front- we’ve relied on our midfield and mid sized players for goals but we need a tall who can take a pack mark when the ball is bombed forward, which is inevitably the case far too often with this team. We need to recruit a really good tall- stop flaffing around getting more mids for goodness sake! More firepower up front is needed, like a Charlie Curnow!

While it'd be very hard to make a case that it would have changed the result, it seems that both sides risked beat up players and Brisbane were much luckier than us with the outcome. Apparently Neale could hardly walk with a heel injury for most of the week. But he managed to play very well, after some pain killing jabs, until he snapped the problematic tendon late in the game. He now faces an extended period of rehabilitation. The game might have been much closer, if he snapped it in the first quarter and if McDonald and Heeney lasted until the last. Of course, that's a lot of what ifs.

[KTigers]

I think it's entirely possible that not all the players are invested in footy to the same degree. The importance of winning a GF may not be as central to some
players as it is to others. And for everyone to be on board or nearly all of them to be on board then the coaches and leaders on the team are going to
have to get inside the heads of the stragglers a bit. Maybe the team collectively is not so good at that. The issues are clearly mental. Didn't we go 13-and-1 and
then 3-and-6 in the H & A. This is a huge drop off. Our starts were often terrible. We saw that time and again during the season. Clearly our minds were elsewhere
at the start of these games. GWS put the cue in the rack in the QF and it cost them, and Port were shot by the time of the Prelim.
Sure, it's all hindsight, but what else can it be at the end of the season.
I think for teams to go all the way you need a bit of luck and a lot of a buy-in. And if you can't get it from everyone then you need to manufacture whatever
way you can it in the heads of the stragglers. That may a skill we are not so good at.

[mcs]

Being angry seldom solves issues. Learning from the hurt and the pain is a better way to find solutions.

I'm not sure in any way they are mutually exclusive. Insert whatever word/emotion you want - as long as something is driving learning from the hurt and pain, that is the important part.

Sadly, we saw precious little on Saturday to suggest what happened in 2022 had any impact on that at all - that is why I think anger is not an entirely unreasonable word to use in this situation. 19 of the 23 out there experienced exactly the same outcomes 2 years ago, and appear to have learnt effectively zilch from it. That is a massive fail, no matter how you look at it.

[Merdo5555]

While it'd be very hard to make a case that it would have changed the result, it seems that both sides risked beat up players and Brisbane were much luckier than us with the outcome. Apparently Neale could hardly walk with a heel injury for most of the week. But he managed to play very well, after some pain killing jabs, until he snapped the problematic tendon late in the game. He now faces an extended period of rehabilitation. The game might have been much closer, if he snapped it in the first quarter and if McDonald and Heeney lasted until the last. Of course, that's a lot of what ifs.

Wouldnt have changed anything other than might have been 3 quarters before Sydney was out of it. The lack of pressure was a team problem and Brisbane was going to get all over Sydney at some point.

[Merdo5555]

For all those saying change is not needed, remember these were all then promises made after 2022, it wont happen again we learnt our lesson, blah blah blah.

Why would you expect it to be different when there were no repercussions for the 2022 debacle.

[KTigers]

Some good and interesting comments from Paul Roos about the need to trade out a few players who are not as committed as they should be as a bit
of a circuit breaker. Our 33 tackles to their 49 when they were 12 goals up is about as loud an alarm bell as you're ever likely to hear. Our problem is all
mental. We lost 16 first quarters this year and let Port thrash us by 19 goals. We followed up a 13-and-1 start to the H & A with a 3-and-6 finish. Sure,
we won games in 15 minutes of scintillating football but it's not something that will stack up in finals when the other 105 are fairly lackluster. That's just
not enough killer and too much filler and when you can't even reproduce that on GF day, we know what happens.

[Blood Fever]

Some good and interesting comments from Paul Roos about the need to trade out a few players who are not as committed as they should be as a bit
of a circuit breaker. Our 33 tackles to their 49 when they were 12 goals up is about as loud an alarm bell as you're ever likely to hear. Our problem is all
mental. We lost 16 first quarters this year and let Port thrash us by 19 goals. We followed up a 13-and-1 start to the H & A with a 3-and-6 finish. Sure,
we won games in 15 minutes of scintillating football but it's not something that will stack up in finals when the other 105 are fairly lackluster. That's just
not enough killer and too much filler and when you can't even reproduce that on GF day, we know what happens.

Not against this idea. The club needs a jolt after two GF shockers. Not sure who would be put up for trade, but we need to be a touch more ruthless after a dismal effort. No need to be over the top, but time to stop treating the players as kids. JL comes across as a protective father figure at times. Loyalty is great but not if it stifles maturity. Roos coached teams always had a hard edge despite his laid back demeanour.

[Meg]

Not against this idea. The club needs a jolt after two GF shockers. Not sure who would be put up for trade, but we need to be a touch more ruthless after a dismal effort. No need to be over the top, but time to stop treating the players as kids. JL comes across as a protective father figure at times. Loyalty is great but not if it stifles maturity. Roos coached teams always had a hard edge despite his laid back demeanour.

The following anecdotes are as comment on the above re JL — a sentiment I have read elsewhere in comments suggesting JL is not tough enough nor demanding enough to coach for success at the highest level.

i attended three of the ‘Before the Bounce’ events in the Swans HQ before matches at the SCG. I heard four past players — all of whom I think each of us respect — speak in Q & A sessions: Josh Kennedy, Lewis Roberts-Thompson, Dan Hannebery and Kieren Jack.

In relation to playing under JL, the common theme seemed to be that in the time of their playing careers, Longmire had been a demanding coach, relentless in demanding of high performance, hard on players who failed to play at the standard he demanded. LRT implied that he enjoyed playing under Roos more than under JL as Roos was such a ‘caring’ man (the adjective he used) — while hastening to add JL also cared about his players, Kennedy commented that now as a spectator he sometimes winced seeing a player make a blunder as he envisaged what JL would be saying. Hannebery commented about how tough JL had been on him, how he felt nervous walking past Jl’s office after a match if he knew he hadn’t played well, while adding that looking back he respects the high standards JL demanded and feels that helped him mature as a person. (Dan also said JL was like a second father to him when he came to Sydney at such a young age.)

However — the other common theme (which each of the three who played the most under Jl said) was that the authoritarian, demanding approach would no longer work under the demographic of the current players. And that they all believed that JL had understood that and had softened his approach. And they were all admiring of JL’s capacity and willingness to change. (JL has commented several times about how close the group became during the period spent together living and playing under Covid lockdown. My guess is that has had a significant influence on JL’s approach.)

I don’t have any close connections with young men or women in the late teens to early 30’s demographic. So I am no expert on what works in coaching a group of elite athletes of that age bracket. However I have reflected on Clarkson’s (so far) lack of success with North M v Mitchell’s rapid development of a high performing team of young men at Hawthorn towards the end of the season. I suspect Clarkson still has an ‘old era’ approach while Mitchell provides a more relaxed ‘new era’ approach. And Fagan seems to be the very opposite of ruthless.

And having related the above, I don’t for a moment believe JL at any time has adopted the attitude that getting to GF is ‘great, well done, the result doesn’t matter’. He is very measured in his public comments —yet stated bluntly in press conference after the Port thumping that what the players delivered was ‘unacceptable’. I suspect he has said the same to the players behind closed doors after Saturday’s match. The players were devastated (despite some suggesting otherwise), just look at the footage of players being comforted by partners and parents after the match. JL is not a person who would publicly throw them under a bus while they are hurting so much.

I don’t have the answers for what happened on Saturday. I suspect there are numerous factors that were there all year but which came together at the one time under the brilliance and fierce toughness of the Lions. We do need to take some hard decisions for the future. We do need some tougher, stronger players to play hard contested footy alongside the lighter fleet-of-foot brigade (and that might require putting a star on the trade table). We do need to be able to maintain our skills under pressure (distressing to see how far off kicking and handballing were all match). We do need to reconsider game plans and the players need to be capable of sticking to them (JL said they went in with the intent of shortening the ‘teasing’ difference — yet our players gave their opponents oodles of room with predictable outcomes). We do need to be more mentally resilient (though the Swans have been a leader in employing a psychologist and she was on the bench and in the rooms with players all match).

There is a lot of introspection, planning and tough decisions needed for next season. Perhaps that might include JL deciding to move sideways to a new role, or announcing a transition to a new coach over 2025. There is no way the club would sack him in my view and I would be horrified if they did. But the answer is not as simple as ‘we need a coach who is more ruthless’.

Sorry for the essay, like everyone else this has been churning around in my mind since Saturday.

[Ruck'n'Roll]

Our 33 tackles to their 49 when they were 12 goals up is about as loud an alarm bell as you're ever likely to hear. Our problem is all
mental. We lost 16 first quarters this year and let Port thrash us by 19 goals. We followed up a 13-and-1 start to the H & A with a 3-and-6 finish. Sure,
we won games in 15 minutes of scintillating football but it's not something that will stack up in finals when the other 105 are fairly lackluster. That's just
not enough killer and too much filler and when you can't even reproduce that on GF day, we know what happens.

Said the same thing myself

We are all feeling devastated by the loss, but I don't think we should be completely surprised. We won 17 games this season, a fair chunk of those wins featured the Swans putting on a 20 minute burst of exquisite football that simply blew our opponents away. But in a lot of those games the other 60 minutes weren't exactly scintillating were they?

And in a couple of games, that burst just never came, we got beaten badly by the Dogs, then lost the game against Port by 112 points. So it's not as if yesterday was without precedent this season.

By far the most telling stat of the day and one that I think might be without precendent this season, was the fact we got out tackled comfortably in a game we lost by 10 goals in a very, I agree with mcs very damning.

I've wondered about the ostentatious bravado dispayed by some of the younger players in particular. I've been told that I don't understand young people, that it's a generation thing. And maybe they're right - but it realy does look like old fashioned chest-beating bombast to me - it may serve to hide ones fragility on occasion, but that fragility has been exposed for all to see yet again.

[Blood Fever]

The following anecdotes are as comment on the above re JL — a sentiment I have read elsewhere in comments suggesting JL is not tough enough nor demanding enough to coach for success at the highest level.

i attended three of the ‘Before the Bounce’ events in the Swans HQ before matches at the SCG. I heard four past players — all of whom I think each of us respect — speak in Q & A sessions: Josh Kennedy, Lewis Roberts-Thompson, Dan Hannebery and Kieren Jack.

In relation to playing under JL, the common theme seemed to be that in the time of their playing careers, Longmire had been a demanding coach, relentless in demanding of high performance, hard on players who failed to play at the standard he demanded. LRT implied that he enjoyed playing under Roos more than under JL as Roos was such a ‘caring’ man (the adjective he used) — while hastening to add JL also cared about his players, Kennedy commented that now as a spectator he sometimes winced seeing a player make a blunder as he envisaged what JL would be saying. Hannebery commented about how tough JL had been on him, how he felt nervous walking past Jl’s office after a match if he knew he hadn’t played well, while adding that looking back he respects the high standards JL demanded and feels that helped him mature as a person. (Dan also said JL was like a second father to him when he came to Sydney at such a young age.)

However — the other common theme (which each of the three who played the most under Jl said) was that the authoritarian, demanding approach would no longer work under the demographic of the current players. And that they all believed that JL had understood that and had softened his approach. And they were all admiring of JL’s capacity and willingness to change. (JL has commented several times about how close the group became during the period spent together living and playing under Covid lockdown. My guess is that has had a significant influence on JL’s approach.)

I don’t have any close connections with young men or women in the late teens to early 30’s demographic. So I am no expert on what works in coaching a group of elite athletes of that age bracket. However I have reflected on Clarkson’s (so far) lack of success with North M v Mitchell’s rapid development of a high performing team of young men at Hawthorn towards the end of the season. I suspect Clarkson still has an ‘old era’ approach while Mitchell provides a more relaxed ‘new era’ approach. And Fagan seems to be the very opposite of ruthless.

And having related the above, I don’t for a moment believe JL at any time has adopted the attitude that getting to GF is ‘great, well done, the result doesn’t matter’. He is very measured in his public comments —yet stated bluntly in press conference after the Port thumping that what the players delivered was ‘unacceptable’. I suspect he has said the same to the players behind closed doors after Saturday’s match. The players were devastated (despite some suggesting otherwise), just look at the footage of players being comforted by partners and parents after the match. JL is not a person who would publicly throw them under a bus while they are hurting so much.

I don’t have the answers for what happened on Saturday. I suspect there are numerous factors that were there all year but which came together at the one time under the brilliance and fierce toughness of the Lions. We do need to take some hard decisions for the future. We do need some tougher, stronger players to play hard contested footy alongside the lighter fleet-of-foot brigade (and that might require putting a star on the trade table). We do need to be able to maintain our skills under pressure (distressing to see how far off kicking and handballing were all match). We do need to reconsider game plans and the players need to be capable of sticking to them (JL said they went in with the intent of shortening the ‘teasing’ difference — yet our players gave their opponents oodles of room with predictable outcomes). We do need to be more mentally resilient (though the Swans have been a leader in employing a psychologist and she was on the bench and in the rooms with players all match).

There is a lot of introspection, planning and tough decisions needed for next season. Perhaps that might include JL deciding to move sideways to a new role, or announcing a transition to a new coach over 2025. There is no way the club would sack him in my view and I would be horrified if they did. But the answer is not as simple as ‘we need a coach who is more ruthless’.

Sorry for the essay, like everyone else this has been churning around in my mind since Saturday.

Thanks Meg for this very interesting and informed post.

[Kafka's Ghost]

The following anecdotes are as comment on the above re JL — a sentiment I have read elsewhere in comments suggesting JL is not tough enough nor demanding enough to coach for success at the highest level.

i attended three of the ‘Before the Bounce’ events in the Swans HQ before matches at the SCG. I heard four past players — all of whom I think each of us respect — speak in Q & A sessions: Josh Kennedy, Lewis Roberts-Thompson, Dan Hannebery and Kieren Jack.

In relation to playing under JL, the common theme seemed to be that in the time of their playing careers, Longmire had been a demanding coach, relentless in demanding of high performance, hard on players who failed to play at the standard he demanded. LRT implied that he enjoyed playing under Roos more than under JL as Roos was such a ‘caring’ man (the adjective he used) — while hastening to add JL also cared about his players, Kennedy commented that now as a spectator he sometimes winced seeing a player make a blunder as he envisaged what JL would be saying. Hannebery commented about how tough JL had been on him, how he felt nervous walking past Jl’s office after a match if he knew he hadn’t played well, while adding that looking back he respects the high standards JL demanded and feels that helped him mature as a person. (Dan also said JL was like a second father to him when he came to Sydney at such a young age.)

However — the other common theme (which each of the three who played the most under Jl said) was that the authoritarian, demanding approach would no longer work under the demographic of the current players. And that they all believed that JL had understood that and had softened his approach. And they were all admiring of JL’s capacity and willingness to change. (JL has commented several times about how close the group became during the period spent together living and playing under Covid lockdown. My guess is that has had a significant influence on JL’s approach.)

I don’t have any close connections with young men or women in the late teens to early 30’s demographic. So I am no expert on what works in coaching a group of elite athletes of that age bracket. However I have reflected on Clarkson’s (so far) lack of success with North M v Mitchell’s rapid development of a high performing team of young men at Hawthorn towards the end of the season. I suspect Clarkson still has an ‘old era’ approach while Mitchell provides a more relaxed ‘new era’ approach. And Fagan seems to be the very opposite of ruthless.

And having related the above, I don’t for a moment believe JL at any time has adopted the attitude that getting to GF is ‘great, well done, the result doesn’t matter’. He is very measured in his public comments —yet stated bluntly in press conference after the Port thumping that what the players delivered was ‘unacceptable’. I suspect he has said the same to the players behind closed doors after Saturday’s match. The players were devastated (despite some suggesting otherwise), just look at the footage of players being comforted by partners and parents after the match. JL is not a person who would publicly throw them under a bus while they are hurting so much.

I don’t have the answers for what happened on Saturday. I suspect there are numerous factors that were there all year but which came together at the one time under the brilliance and fierce toughness of the Lions. We do need to take some hard decisions for the future. We do need some tougher, stronger players to play hard contested footy alongside the lighter fleet-of-foot brigade (and that might require putting a star on the trade table). We do need to be able to maintain our skills under pressure (distressing to see how far off kicking and handballing were all match). We do need to reconsider game plans and the players need to be capable of sticking to them (JL said they went in with the intent of shortening the ‘teasing’ difference — yet our players gave their opponents oodles of room with predictable outcomes). We do need to be more mentally resilient (though the Swans have been a leader in employing a psychologist and she was on the bench and in the rooms with players all match).

There is a lot of introspection, planning and tough decisions needed for next season. Perhaps that might include JL deciding to move sideways to a new role, or announcing a transition to a new coach over 2025. There is no way the club would sack him in my view and I would be horrified if they did. But the answer is not as simple as ‘we need a coach who is more ruthless’.

Sorry for the essay, like everyone else this has been churning around in my mind since Saturday.

This is an excellent overview, Meg, and for someone who “doesn’t have any close connections with the demographic” you’ve nailed the generational shift in attitude. I do train people in this demographic, and telling them to lift their game, even in the most gentle way imaginable, is absolutely not on. Jarrad McVeigh spoke to a group of supporters before the North game, and when he said “the contemporary player is a different beast and moves on pretty quickly”, I could only laugh quietly internally. I’m not pretending I understand them, because I don’t. The change has happened quickly, over about the last 4-5 years or so, where professionalism is a thing of the past, and it’s all about how they can maximise a situation to personal benefit. Of course, this is a gross generalisation, but there’s definitely a significant proportion who have this attitude, and it rubs off. I also work in a team environment, so it’s tricky and not a bit disappointing when you’re trying to teach someone with minimal skills, but their own approach is entirely self-centred. Many of my colleagues say the same thing, across a range of related disciplines and internationally, so there’s certainly a generational change. Maybe JL is a dinosaur like me, and no longer knows how to get his message across.

[Industrial Fan]

Your post took me back to the end of Eades tenure in 2002 with the players often leaving the field in tears and routinely snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I'm obviously not on the inside of the club but I wonder if the player driven culture is still there.

No green shoots at all from the loss on the weekend.

[KTigers]

This is an excellent overview, Meg, and for someone who “doesn’t have any close connections with the demographic” you’ve nailed the generational shift in attitude. I do train people in this demographic, and telling them to lift their game, even in the most gentle way imaginable, is absolutely not on. Jarrad McVeigh spoke to a group of supporters before the North game, and when he said “the contemporary player is a different beast and moves on pretty quickly”, I could only laugh quietly internally. I’m not pretending I understand them, because I don’t. The change has happened quickly, over about the last 4-5 years or so, where professionalism is a thing of the past, and it’s all about how they can maximise a situation to personal benefit. Of course, this is a gross generalisation, but there’s definitely a significant proportion who have this attitude, and it rubs off. I also work in a team environment, so it’s tricky and not a bit disappointing when you’re trying to teach someone with minimal skills, but their own approach is entirely self-centred. Many of my colleagues say the same thing, across a range of related disciplines and internationally, so there’s certainly a generational change. Maybe JL is a dinosaur like me, and no longer knows how to get his message across.

I suspect Jarrad is right on a couple of levels. Some players won't like being spoken to harshly and will want to move on quickly (to another club). Others will
lose two GF's badly in three years, have a bit of a cry about it for 5 minutes after the game and by Monday be rolling around drunk on the floor of an
Eastern suburbs pub and possibly injuring themselves. They won't all be like that, but there will be a few.

[dejavoodoo44]

I suspect Jarrad is right on a couple of levels. Some players won't like being spoken to harshly and will want to move on quickly (to another club). Others will
lose two GF's badly in three years, have a bit of a cry about it for 5 minutes after the game and by Monday be rolling around drunk on the floor of an
Eastern suburbs pub and possibly injuring themselves. They won't all be like that, but there will be a few.

11am Tuesday and so far, no reports of Mad Monday injuries, scandals, bust ups or arrests. First stage of the rebuild achieved!